From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jun 30 22:24:09 2003 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Mon Jun 30 22:25:53 2003 Subject: No subject Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 322 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lair.xent.com/pipermail/fork/attachments/20030701/e37e8dfd/attachment.bat From business1 at tangfeng.org Mon Jun 30 22:24:09 2003 From: business1 at tangfeng.org (business1@tangfeng.org) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:27:02 2003 Subject: Dear Sir or Madam Message-ID: <20010924064550.A8F9B29400F@xent.com> Xiu Yuan Name: Beijing Tangfeng Culture Exchange Centre Address: No.210, Building 2, Party School of Beijing Municipal Government Committee, No.6 Chegongzhuang Street, Xicheng District, Beijing, China. Tel: 86-10-6800-1452 86-10-6800--3112 M£®T£º13661361402 Homepage: Http://www.Tangfeng.org E-mail: Postmaster------------Postmaster@Tangfeng.org VIPcustomers----------office@Tangfeng.org Businesscustomers-----business1@Tangfeng.org business2@Tangfeng.org xiuyuan@263.net.cn Dear Sir or Madam, T&F are providing a variety of investment advisory service and status inquiry services in China. Our reports on credit inquiry and information of every internal industry or commerce business, including registration of corporation, history of corporation, background of the legal person, financial statement, relations of banking, leading products, condition of manufacturing abilities and equipment, management of trademark as well as affiliates, and so on. 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Tel: 86-10-6800-1452 86-10-6800--3112 Mobile Tel:13661361402 Homepage: Http://www.Tangfeng.org E-mail:Webmaster: postmaster@tangfeng.org VIP customers service: office@tangfeng.org Business customers service: business1@tangfeng.org business2@tangfeng.org xiuyuan@263.net.cn Dear Sir or Madam, T&F provide a variety of investment advisory services and status inquiry services in China.Over a long period,T&F have developed and maintained cooperative working relationships with a large number of government agencies in China.Our reports on credit inquiry and information of every internal industry or commerce business, including registration of corporation, history of corporation,At the same time, we should be pleased to hear if you would grant us the sole agency for China or you would be our agency for your district if you want. T&F will be provide a piece of accurate and credible investigation data, which you want about achieving nation-wide and comprehensive reference report forever! Please visit our Homepage: http://www.tangfeng.org , write or e-mail to T&F promptly, if you are interested in it. T&F shall be pleased to render you any further services. Very turly yours, Beijing Tangfeng Culture Exchange Center Xiu Yuan From bogus@does.not.exist.com Mon Jun 30 22:24:09 2003 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com (High Rise ) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:29:43 2003 Subject: How to get your business noticed / Feb 2002 Message-ID: PM200000:14:57 An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lair.xent.com/pipermail/fork/attachments/20020204/aea268a8/attachment.htm From 6473u67 at las.inpe.br Mon Jun 30 22:24:09 2003 From: 6473u67 at las.inpe.br (6473u67@las.inpe.br) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:32:15 2003 Subject: Get serious about making more money 6716xlWl3-415Qiy-15 Message-ID: <017b07a17a8a$4572e7d4$0ee65bd1@papoaj> Easy 30-50% Return? Learn how you can receive a monthly check for 3, 4, or 5% a month until your initial investment is paid off...then a monthly check for over 4% a month for years to come... We know it sounds impossible, but it's happening today. For complete information on this multi-trillion dollar industry: http://builtit4unow.com/pos ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ To Opt Out please go to our website and click on the link at the bottom of the page: http://builtit4unow.com/options 6152lcAj1-112rHTn0008qlNP6-051rQHe9427qTfZ8-508cZOM2678omDi8-786YDtg0829JhUk7-l73 From alanen7586c14 at aol.com Mon Jun 30 22:24:09 2003 From: alanen7586c14 at aol.com (alanen7586c14@aol.com) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:32:22 2003 Subject: industry lowest rates for merchant services Message-ID: <024e78b21d0d$2537c7b1$8cc20aa1@xlmgpe> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lair.xent.com/pipermail/fork/attachments/20020611/ea43ee94/attachment.htm From emcer23jsd4430s21 at netscape.net Mon Jun 30 22:24:09 2003 From: emcer23jsd4430s21 at netscape.net (emcer23jsd4430s21@netscape.net) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:32:25 2003 Subject: lowest credit card processing rates . . . Message-ID: <024b47d83d7e$3687c8c4$7ca07da3@qpanls> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lair.xent.com/pipermail/fork/attachments/20020613/74e4ea46/attachment.htm From mrmtgs7005m67 at netscape.net Mon Jun 30 22:24:09 2003 From: mrmtgs7005m67 at netscape.net (mrmtgs7005m67@netscape.net) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:32:40 2003 Subject: Now is the time to lower your rates: refi 0031hlyZ7-629wAzt3-17 Message-ID: <018e31a73b0d$5675c0c5$2ce37ed0@bdqxky> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lair.xent.com/pipermail/fork/attachments/20020623/3cccb98a/attachment.htm From vvflaar2vv1173m47 at netscape.net Mon Jun 30 22:24:09 2003 From: vvflaar2vv1173m47 at netscape.net (vvflaar2vv1173m47@netscape.net) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:32:43 2003 Subject: falling interest rates=big savings 13-2 Message-ID: <031a14a37c0c$7726e3d3$5cc55ab2@lfafaf> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lair.xent.com/pipermail/fork/attachments/20020627/0f3c7565/attachment.htm From abcd4883e33 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 30 22:24:09 2003 From: abcd4883e33 at yahoo.com (abcd4883e33@yahoo.com) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:32:47 2003 Subject: I saw your email Message-ID: <028e01c60d0d$5524b6c4$3ec35bb4@tiujyu> I saw your email on a website I visited yesterday, and thought you might be interested in this. A few months back I joined a program and then...promptly forgot about it. You may have done this yourself sometime...you intend to work the program but then get caught in your day-to-day activities and it's soon forgotten. The program was free to join so maybe I just didn't take it very seriously. Anyway, near the end of May I received a letter from my sponsor (Vic Patalano) informing me that I had more than 2000 PAID members in my downline! As you can imagine, I was very skeptical. After all, how could I have more than 2000 paid members under me in a program that I had never promoted? I took the time to check out the site...then wrote to Vic asking for confirmation that these were paid members and not just free sign-ups...like me :) Well, it was true...I had 2365 paid members in my downline. This in a program that I had never worked! All I had to do was upgrade to a paid membership before the end of the month and I would have my position locked in and a downline of 2365 people. You can bet I wasted no time in getting my membership upgraded! I can tell you, if I had known what was happening with this program, I would have become an active paid member months ago! With this program, you will get a HUGE downline of PAID MEMBERS. My sponsor's check, which is a minimum of $5,000, arrives every month...on time. How would you like to lock your position in FREE while you check out this opportunity and watch your downline grow? To grab a FREE ID#, simply reply to:gitrman@excite.com and write this phrase: "Email me details about the club's business and consumer opportunities" Be sure to include your: 1. First name 2. Last name 3. Email address (if different from above) We will confirm your position and send you a special report as soon as possible, and also Your Free Member Number. I'll get you entered and let you know how you can keep track of your growing downline. That's all there's to it. I'll then send you info, and you can make up your own mind. Warm regards, Bruce Stevens P.S. After having several negative experiences with network marketing companies I had pretty much given up on them. This company is different--it offers value, integrity, and a REAL opportunity to have your own home-based business... and finally make real money on the internet. Don't pass this up..you can sign up and test-drive the program for FREE. All you need to do is get your free membership. Unsubscribing: Send an emailmarked Unsubscribe to gitrman@excite.com 7112mRPY4-167XXNg8941oHtD2-546awsX6148mVyDl40 From aliceb92903887a14 at netscape.net Mon Jun 30 22:24:09 2003 From: aliceb92903887a14 at netscape.net (aliceb92903887a14@netscape.net) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:32:48 2003 Subject: Bad Credit Won't Stop You from a Refi 8074JdEA9-320W-13 Message-ID: <006c34e33b0b$6224b8c5$5da36be8@pyotol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lair.xent.com/pipermail/fork/attachments/20020702/cc588576/attachment.htm From uno1 at inwind.it Mon Jun 30 22:24:09 2003 From: uno1 at inwind.it (Franco De nuzzo) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:32:49 2003 Subject: Request / richiesta / requestes / italian - francais / english Message-ID: <20020703140258.9399A294099@xent.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lair.xent.com/pipermail/fork/attachments/20020703/f89cf9e9/attachment.htm From jack3805d38 at aol.com Mon Jun 30 22:24:09 2003 From: jack3805d38 at aol.com (jack3805d38@aol.com) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:32:50 2003 Subject: bring down your merchant service fees 0873SvgC0-615JQWw4065HzY-23 Message-ID: <020b81d37e5d$8286b2e2$3be31ac6@twdyai> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lair.xent.com/pipermail/fork/attachments/20020704/027c6a8d/attachment.htm From MctActs7312n63 at lycos.com Mon Jun 30 22:24:09 2003 From: MctActs7312n63 at lycos.com (MctActs7312n63@lycos.com) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:32:51 2003 Subject: Merchant Accounts - Lowest Rates 4321-4 Message-ID: <038b55a27c3b$6862e0e0$8db71bc3@tqegbu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lair.xent.com/pipermail/fork/attachments/20020705/a9d1bf34/attachment.htm From abcd8746c48 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 30 22:24:09 2003 From: abcd8746c48 at yahoo.com (abcd8746c48@yahoo.com) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:32:52 2003 Subject: I saw your email Message-ID: <021c80b06d0d$5375c6c3$5bb16bd4@wtcnpw> I saw your email on a website I visited yesterday, and thought you might be interested in this. A few months back I joined a program and then...promptly forgot about it. You may have done this yourself sometime...you intend to work the program but then get caught in your day-to-day activities and it's soon forgotten. The program was free to join so maybe I just didn't take it very seriously. Anyway, near the end of May I received a letter from my sponsor (Vic Patalano) informing me that I had more than 2000 PAID members in my downline! As you can imagine, I was very skeptical. After all, how could I have more than 2000 paid members under me in a program that I had never promoted? I took the time to check out the site...then wrote to Vic asking for confirmation that these were paid members and not just free sign-ups...like me :) Well, it was true...I had 2365 paid members in my downline. This in a program that I had never worked! All I had to do was upgrade to a paid membership before the end of the month and I would have my position locked in and a downline of 2365 people. You can bet I wasted no time in getting my membership upgraded! I can tell you, if I had known what was happening with this program, I would have become an active paid member months ago! With this program, you will get a HUGE downline of PAID MEMBERS. My sponsor's check, which is a minimum of $5,000, arrives every month...on time. How would you like to lock your position in FREE while you check out this opportunity and watch your downline grow? To grab a FREE ID#, simply reply to:gitrman@excite.com and write this phrase: "Email me details about the club's business and consumer opportunities" Be sure to include your: 1. First name 2. Last name 3. Email address (if different from above) We will confirm your position and send you a special report as soon as possible, and also Your Free Member Number. I'll get you entered and let you know how you can keep track of your growing downline. That's all there's to it. I'll then send you info, and you can make up your own mind. Warm regards, Bruce Stevens P.S. After having several negative experiences with network marketing companies I had pretty much given up on them. 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As Dr. Bernard Jensen says, "It is the bowel that invariably has to be cared for first before any effective healing can take place." Low energy level? People suffer from malnutrition and autointoxication (self-poisoning), which result in disease, parasites and filth, all because of a gradual buildup of many pockets of waste that has not been eliminated. The healthy colon weighs about four pounds, an unhealthy one can weigh more than twice as much. Few people realize that the same unhealthy substances found in the colon can also abound in the stomach, duodenum and small intestine. A polluted intestinal tract... . . . means dirty blood, poor digestion and low energy. When the intestines have too much waste matter, parasites, fungus and harmful bacteria, there results a serious interference with the digestive process. Even if a person's intestinal tract were polluted with just a mild amount of this undesirable filth, he or she could have sluggish peristaltic action, which causes constipation. How does the body adjust to cooked food, processed food and refined food - dead foods? Victoria Boutenko in her book, "12 Steps to Raw Food", explains it this way: "The body creates mucus and uses this mucus as a filter. All the surfaces of the digestive tract that are designed to absorb the nutrients from food become covered with mucus film that protects blood from toxins. The mucus film begins at the tongue and continues all the way through the intestines. Many people can see this mucus on their tongue. People who have a thick mucus coating on their intestines usually have white tongues as if they just ate sour cream. The body creates a little mucus, to begin with, to filter out the toxins from the dead food. The more dead food we consume, the more mucus the body produces as a protection. The more harmful the food substances are to the body, the more this mucous film builds up. As the years go by it becomes thicker and harder. Portions of this thick mucus get pushed into pockets called diverticuli as we cram through more and more dead food into the digestive tract in an effort to squeeze some nutritional value out of it. You may ask: What is the mucus made of? The human body, brilliant as always, creates the mucus from the dead food itself! This mucus covers our entire digestive tract, to prevent us from absorbing the toxins in dead food that would make the body too sick. Because of the mucoid plaque, our nutrient assimilation becomes low. The mucoid plaque protects us from absorbing toxins, but at the same time we cannot absorb nutrients. The more mucus we have, the fewer nutrients we can receive. After a number of years of eating too much dead food, we develop severe nutritional deficiencies, become less energetic and finally sick with diseases." When we go on raw-live food and stay with it, this mucoid plaque can be dissolved. With the aid of herbal preparations and exercise, the body will eliminate it faster. The longer we eat raw-live food, the more plaque gets dissolved. Where has my pep gone? Any build-up of old pockets of waste matter (diverticulitis) produces fermentation, putrefaction and stagnant packets of poisons and harmful bacteria (a condition of autointoxication or self-poisoning). These toxins constantly seep into the bloodstream and lymph. They eventually settle into the weakest areas of the body, then various symptoms develop and are given names according to those areas and the degree of cell degeneration. Unfortunately the symptoms found elsewhere in the body resulting from the toxic overload in the bowel, are generally treated rather than the cause in the bowel. Even if one succeeds in strengthening the weak area or suppressing the symptom, the toxic flow from the bowel will simply find another weak area to break through. As Dr. Jensen puts it, "Every tissue is fed by the blood, which is supplied by the bowel. When the bowel is dirty, the blood is dirty and so on to the organs and tissues." Parasite heaven.. ...a dirty, unhealthy intestinal tract. This is the ideal environment for worms and parasites. There are over 300 varieties that can live in the human body. Worldwide, worms outrank cancer as our deadliest enemy. It has been estimated that 150 million people in America have intestinal parasite infestation. Medical textbooks have revealed that over 55 million American children have worms. Parasite infestation is growing rapidly, due to a lack of raw fruits and vegetables in the diet and an increased consumption of cooked and acid-forming foods, i.e., processed foods of all kinds, refined sugars, meat, dairy, poultry and coffee. Once in the intestinal tract, parasites have easy access to other parts of the body where they bring on various symptoms and diseases. How can I get back my "get up and go"? It is crucial to realize the importance of removing unhealthy bacteria, mold and fungus from the intestinal tract and re-establishing the beneficial bacteria. This flora is essential to a strong immune system, assimilation of vitamins, proteins, fats, carbohydrates and the manufacturing of Vitamin B-12, K and amino acids. It helps reduce cholesterol in the blood, control the pH in the intestines and detoxify the poisonous materials in our diets, while producing cancer-suppressing compounds that strengthen the immune system, increase calcium assimilation and help retard Candida, excess gas and bad breath. When unhealthy bacteria overrun the healthy bacteria, outside pathogens penetrate the immune barriers and clog the blood and lymph with further toxic substance. Proper implantation of healthy bacteria begins with cleansing and removing the harmful bacteria/fungus from the digestive system. A Complete Colon Cleanse/Nutritional Program can prepare the intestinal environment for beneficial bacteria. Water, juice-fasts or colonics by themselves are unable to remove all these substances. There are various preparations that can remove easily accessible build-ups from the colon alone, but for best results it is necessary to cleanse and restore the strong function of the stomach and entire digestive tract. This can only be accomplished by restoring the beneficial flora balance, ridding the system of accumulated waste pockets and introducing highly nutritious raw-live food sources to replace the over abundance of processed/ refined foods, meat, dairy, poultry and excessively cooked foods. This is a crucial change for those who are determined to have better health and sustain it for the rest of their life. Our company would love to send you more information regarding cleansing and health through proper nutrition. For a free information pack via snail mail (US postal service) send an email to: herbcleanse5@netscape.net Or you can call 800-393-7954 Make sure to include your name, mailing address, and telephone number and we'll mail a free info pack right off to you. We do not reply with our extensive information pack through email. Remember, this information only comes via snail mail and your local mailman, so please don't ask for email responses. Remember to include your complete physical address. Thanks and good health. If you wish to be taken off this list please send an email to the address below. noherbs@excite.com Thank You 6938nroi3-251SdPG4261CGam3-331zRfY5717eqHv9-765CQzV5172SxDG9-119l60 From louann208251q11 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 30 22:24:09 2003 From: louann208251q11 at yahoo.com (louann208251q11@yahoo.com) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:33:28 2003 Subject: Credit won't Stop You: REFI Today 8161CiAx4-066jgdU6386G-21 Message-ID: <011b34e33d5b$6644a6e2$2bb61ad5@nskdyj> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lair.xent.com/pipermail/fork/attachments/20020815/70e4d056/attachment.htm From lgonze at panix.com Sun Jun 1 12:37:49 2003 From: lgonze at panix.com (Lucas Gonze) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:55 2003 Subject: waste testbed In-Reply-To: <3ED91F46.7090402@cse.ucsc.edu> Message-ID: gonze.com/waste/ On Sat, 31 May 2003, Elias Sinderson wrote: > Lucas Gonze wrote: > > >For anyone interested in checking out w.a.s.t.e, you can boot into the > >network at 24.29.148.189. > > > > > AOL pulls Nullsoft file-sharing software > By Jim Hu > > > Staff Writer, CNET News.com > May 30, 2003, 2:06 PM PT > http://news.com.com/2100-1032-1011585.html > > > A day after developers at America Online's Nullsoft unit quietly > released file-sharing software, AOL pulled the link to the product from > the subsidiary's Web site. > > The software, called Waste, lets groups set up private, secure > file-sharing networks. The product became available on Nullsoft's Web > site on Wednesday, just days shy of the four-year anniversary of being > acquired by AOL. Waste is a software application that combines > peer-to-peer file sharing with instant messaging, chat and file > searches. Users can set up their own network of friends and share files > between each other. > > The features of Waste are similar to those of file-swapping services > such as Kazaa and the defunct Napster, but the difference is that only > small networks of people (up to 50, according to the Web site) can use > it. The software also offers encryption and authentication to prevent > non-invitees from accessing the private networks. > > The quiet launch of Waste was the work of Nullsoft's principal > developer, Justin Frankel, a soft-spoken 20-something known for his tech > savvy and his streak of rebelliousness. > > Waste had been used internally to share files between AOL's San > Francisco office, where Nullsoft is based, and its Dulles, Va., > headquarters, according to Ian Rogers, a former founding member of > Nullsoft. > > "The real play is when you've got small networks of co-workers or > friends who can share whatever they want securely," Rogers said in an > interview. "It could be a group of government officials sharing secure > documents or it could be Justin sharing video files with AOL Dulles." > > An AOL representative did not return requests for comment. > > Nullsoft has had its conflicts with AOL in the past, such as in 2000 > when Frankel developed a music file-swapping technology called Gnutella. > AOL quickly pulled it off the Web fearing legal ramifications, but not > before developers downloaded it and began creating services based on its > software code. > > AOL also forced Nullsoft to shut down an MP3 search engine > , fearing the legal > consequences of the software. Then, Frankel and his cohorts caused a > stir when they developed software called AIMazing, which replaced banner > advertisements on AOL Instant Messenger into wiggling sound waves > accompanied by music. > > That's not to say all of Nullsoft's products have been a thorn in AOL's > side. AOL acquired Nullsoft in 1999 for its Winamp MP3 player and now > uses the technology in its flagship online service. AOL also has been > revamping its streaming-media delivery system by using another Nullsoft > creation called Ultravox > , which AOL claims can > stream media more efficiently than other products on the market. AOL > uses Ultravox to stream songs on its narrowband and broadband radio > services. > > > From lgonze at panix.com Sun Jun 1 15:48:28 2003 From: lgonze at panix.com (Lucas Gonze) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:55 2003 Subject: waste testbed In-Reply-To: <200305312041.53352.gtn@rbii.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 May 2003, Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote: > Doesn't seem to be all that interesting.... the basic theme is pretty common. > The social aspects are far more significant than the technology, so the > technology is largely irrelevant, like most P2P systems. IMHO. > > Maybe I'm missing something? Don't think so... From geege at barrera.org Sun Jun 1 00:05:41 2003 From: geege at barrera.org (geege) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:56 2003 Subject: OldMold In-Reply-To: <3ED68ECA.7040101@barrera.org> Message-ID: http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/oct98/0022.html (i'd pay to watch you play the rmp.) gg -----Original Message----- From: fork-bounces@xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces@xent.com]On Behalf Of Joseph S. Barrera III Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 3:51 PM To: FoRK Subject: Re: OldMold Jeffrey Kay wrote: > I'm in. I'm a drummer and can do vocals in a pinch (haven't done punk > vocals, though). I also have a 4 track digital recorder that works well > for this sort of thing. I can rewrite lyrics to be more obscure and depressing... - Joe :-) P.S. I can also play the part of the Rejected Mexican Pope P.S. I can make squeaking avant-guard sounds with a clarinet or violin or oboe or bassoon From rah at shipwright.com Sun Jun 1 00:37:14 2003 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:56 2003 Subject: Come on over the water's lovely Message-ID: The Telegraph Come on over the water's lovely (Filed: 01/06/2003) I've spent the past couple of weeks on a motoring tour of western and northern Iraq, and I can't recommend it highly enough. The roads are empty except for the occasional burnt-out tank and abandoned Saddamite limo. You can make excellent time, because it will be several months before a deBa'athified Iraqi highway patrol squad is up and running and even longer before they replace the looted radar detectors. On the boring stretches of desert motorway you can liven things up by playing D-I-Y contraflow. And best of all, if you avoid Baghdad and a couple of other major cities, you'll find the charming countryside completely unspoilt by Western reporters insisting that America is "losing the peace". For most of the Iraq war and its immediate aftermath, it was easy for any relatively rational person to dismiss the media doom-mongering. Hundreds of thousands of dead civilians? Never gonna happen. Hand-to-hand street-fighting as Baghdad morphs into Stalingrad? Dream on. Even that Iraqi National Museum "disaster" was an obvious hoax, though I was sad to see my friends at The Spectator fall for it and add their own peculiar twist that it was all a conspiracy of a sinister US antiquities lobby. But, when the naysayers started moving on to claim that the whole post-war scene was going disastrously for the Yanks, I honestly didn't know what to make of it. As a general rule of thumb, when two non-government organisations, the French foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin, the BBC and the New York Times agree that the whole powder keg's about to go up, it's a safe bet that things are going swimmingly. But who knows? Even these guys have got to be right once a decade or so. So I decided to see for myself. Unlike those parliamentary delegations getting ferried around by the military and Continental television crews embedded with convoys of NGOs, I have no contacts either in the Ministry of Defence or the World Food Programme. So I hopped on a flight to Jordan, rented some beat-up Nissan piece of junk in Amman and headed east. After four hours, I passed a sign on the highway saying "IRAQI BOARDER 39km". I assumed this was a misprint, but 39km down the road there were indeed some Iraqi boarders, boarding in a United Nations refugee camp in the no-man's land between the Jordanian and Iraqi frontier posts. Lacking one of the gazillion pieces of paperwork necessary to get past the interminable Jordanian frontier bureaucracy and gamely bluffing my way through, I left the car on the shoulder just past the sentry box a few yards from the tents. I returned to find a woman and her children clustered round it and anxious to know whether I could offer them safe passage to a third country. It seems they lacked the relevant papers to satisfy the Jordanians and, unlike yours truly, had been unable to talk their way round. Although the camp had set up enough tents for hundreds, the members of this family were the only refugees in residence. The singular of that "IRAQI BOARDER" sign was a slight exaggeration, but not by much. And that underpopulated border camp is a fine motif for what's going on: vast numbers of bureaucrats are running around Iraq with unlimited budgets in search of a human catastrophe that doesn't exist. "Had a lot of refugees?" I asked the Jordanian customs officer. "We had about 10 through last week," he said. "Palestinians." "Where were they headed? Amman?" "No, he said. "They were going back to Iraq." Apparently, having fled across the Jordanian border to the UN facility near Ruweished, they concluded after a few days that the camp wasn't quite up to snuff and decided to go back home. Amazing. Over on the West Bank, the Palestinians have been in their grotesque UN "refugee" "camps" for more than 50 years. But, faced with a choice between Ruweished and the "chaos" and "insecurity" of Iraq, the Palestinians have finally found a refugee camp up with which they will not put. Incidentally, when I was there, every Iraqi refugee in the UN camp at Ruweished was Palestinian. In other words, this isn't a human crisis but Arab politics - the longstanding refusal by Middle Eastern regimes to accord Palestinian residents any kind of legal status. Many of those in the Ruweished camp are the husbands and children of Jordanian women, but it makes no difference: flee Iraq with Palestinian documents and you get slung in a refugee camp. The inability of their Arab brothers to resist screwing over the Palestinians is not a problem George W Bush can fix, only King Abdullah, and all that UN refugee camp is doing is letting His Majesty get away with it. So that's the most basic thing about post-Saddam Iraq: for all the "anarchy", no one's fleeing. In the course of my trip, I drove as far east as the outskirts of Baghdad and as far north as Kirkuk. I spent a pleasant evening prowling round Saddam's home town of Tikrit, where I detected a frisson of menace in the air, but marginally less than in, say, Stockwell, south London. Come to think of it, I was wearing a suit and tie (the Robert Fisk look isn't really my bag) and carrying substantial amounts of hard currency, which I'd never do after dark round Tottenham. I had an illegally acquired firearm but, even in Tikrit, I was relaxed enough to leave it in the glove box. In the western towns, which were relatively unscathed by the war, it's the almost surgical removal of the regime that you're struck by. Every Main Street roundabout has its empty plinths where the Saddam portraits stood. There are generally a couple of large blocks plus a compound and maybe a fancy house with elaborate decorative stonework with their doors and gates hanging off the hinges and the odd goat or donkey defecating over the interior: these are the Ba'athist buildings, and they're the sole target of highly focused looting. Everything else is untouched - the poky grocery stores piled high with boxes of soda you could boil a lobster in, the ramshackle auto shops with their mounds of second-hand tyres, all these are open for business, and in the end they're more relevant to the future of Iraq than the legions of unemployed Saddamite bureaucrats in Baghdad or the NGO armies in their brand new, gleaming white Chevy Suburbans and Land Rovers cruising the streets touting for business like drug pushers in search of junkies. Last Saturday, I was back in Rutba, a town I rather like in its decrepit way, and stopped for a late lunch at a restaurant with big windows, a high ceiling with attractive mouldings and overhead fans, and a patron who looked like a Sinatra album cover, hat pushed back on his head. As I got out of the car, I noticed across the street a big, white sports utility - a sure sign that someone from the welfare jet set was in town. This one was marked Oxfam. "Hmm," I thought. "Must be some starvation in the neighbourhood." The winsome young Arab boy with a face as lovely as Halle Berry's and a lot less grumpy brought me a whole roast chicken - stringy but chewy - piled with bread and served with a generous selection of salads. I managed to determine that the Oxfam crowd was holding a meeting with the Red Cross to discuss the deteriorating situation. But just what exactly was "deteriorating"? As my groaning table and the stores along Main Street testified, there was plenty of food in town. Was it the water? I made a point of drinking the stuff everywhere I went in a spirited effort to pick up the dysentery and cholera supposedly running rampant. But I remain a disease-free zone. So what precisely is happening in Rutba that requires an Oxfam/ICRC summit? Well, the problem, as they see it, is that, sure, there's plenty of food available but "the prices are too high". That's why the World Food Programme and the other NGOs need to be brought in, to distribute more rations to more people. Can you think of anything Iraq needs less? If prices really are "too high", it's because storekeepers are in the first flush of a liberated economy. Given that the main drag in Rutbah has a gazillion corner shops lined up side by side, competition will soon bring prices down to what the market can bear, if it hasn't already. Offering folks WFP rations will only put some of those storekeepers out of business and ensure that even more people need rations. But perhaps that's the idea. And perhaps that's why I found rather more hostility towards the WFP, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees et al than towards the military. "Americans only in the sky," one man told me, grinning as a chopper rumbled overhead. "No problem." Down on the ground, meanwhile, the new imperial class are the NGOs. They shuttle across the globe, mingling with their own kind - other SUV users - and bringing with them the values of the mother country, or the mother bureaucracy. Like many imperialists, they're well-meaning: they see their charges as helpless and dependent, which happy condition has the benefit of justifying an ever-growing aid bureaucracy in perpetuity. It will be very destructive for Iraq if the tentativeness of the American administration in Baghdad allows the ambulance-chasers of the NGOs to sink their fangs into the country. I'm pleased to report, then, that the obscene Oil For Food programme has been radically privatised. In much of Iraq, the government petrol stations have been pillaged and the gas pumps stripped of their metal panels so that they stand on two thin metal pins, their hoses hanging loose, like R2D2 before he goes in for a service. Instead, entrepreneurial Iraqis stand along the roadside with small tanks of mysteriously acquired petrol. Heading back to Jordan, I pulled up in the desert. "How much for a fill-up?" I asked. "Ten dollars," the man said. "I've only got a 20," I said. "That's good," he said. "Bush," he added, pointing to the picture of Andrew Jackson on the bill. "Close enough," I said. Afterwards, he wanted another 20 for his seven-year-old boy. I'm a softie but not that soft, so I fished out a Canadian 20. "What this?" he said suspiciously. "American one dollar?" He pointed to the Queen's portrait. "Who this?" "George Washington," I said. He'll have a hard job getting rid of the Canadian but that Yankee 20 he'll change in one of the stores back in town and he'll do himself and the local economy more good than the UN's bloated boondoggle ever will. Of course, this is only one guy's experience of Iraq. But I'd like to think that it's catching on. In Ramadi, in another cafe, the maitre d', in honour of my presence, flipped the television over to BBC World. Some Beeb type was doing a piece about some Baghdadi who hadn't been paid since March. Now what sort of fellow hasn't been paid since March? A chap who worked for the toppled thug government perhaps? Might be a committed thug ideologue, might be just a go-along-to-get-along type. But, given that the new Iraqi government is never going to be as huge as the old one, maybe that chap should just stop whining to the BBC and look for a gig in the private sector. Ditto for the BBC reporter, come to that. As usual, the piece wound up with the correspondent standing in the children's ward of the Saddam Hussein Medical Centre predicting more doom and gloom. By contrast, every medical facility I went to in Iraq was well short of capacity. The NGO types concede that Iraqis aren't exactly rushing the hospitals, but say that's because they know that there are no drugs and/or they're worried that they can't afford them. Might be that. Or it might be that they don't want to be stuck on a ward trying to get a moment's sleep under the blazing lights of round-the-clock CNN and BBC camera crews filming their reporter yakking away in front of a telegenic moppet whose acute tonsillitis is somehow all Rumsfeld's fault. These days, I always laugh my head off at BBC World reports. And, in that Ramadi cafe, I was touched to find that, even though most of them hadn't a clue what he was going on about, within half a minute, the rest of the crowd was roaring along with me. Back in Jordan, I drove the long stretch of empty road through the dark towards Ruweished. Judging from the spectacular sodium blaze in the distance, the town was evidently a lot bigger than I remembered it. By night, it looked the size of Birmingham. But it wasn't the town at all, just the UN camp - hundreds of floodlights lighting up a colossal area in the centre of which were those handful of tents containing the unfortunate Palestinian spouses of Jordanian women while they plead with King Abdullah to be let in. Just 'cause you've only got a couple of refugees is no reason not to light up the sky. Money no object, that's the UN way. And anyway we all know it's Bush's fault. -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From fork_list at hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 01:18:05 2003 From: fork_list at hotmail.com (Mr. FoRK) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:56 2003 Subject: Bootcamp for Beberg Message-ID: Here's some info from a VC firm - Insight Partners: http://www.digitalchild.com/cgi-bin/insight/aspen The presentation on 'real time enterprise' was interesting - fluffy, but you kind of see what they may have been trying to say Real Time Enterprise http://www.digitalchild.com/cgi-bin/insight/aspen/real_time_enterprise/file/130 From beberg at mithral.com Sun Jun 1 03:33:52 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:56 2003 Subject: Housing Voodoonomics Message-ID: <6496BFD0-9403-11D7-8765-003065DAE704@mithral.com> By now we all know the U.S. economy is hurting. Jobs are disappearing overseas forever, the national and trade deficits are exploding, 49/50 state governments are broke and cutting services. The dollar is dropping so fast even the Canadians are starting to make dollar jokes. But two odd things are happening, houses just keep going up in value, and people keep spending. This makes no sense when most people are very worried about having a job tomorrow. First, you need to understand what your house is worth. If you ask someone what their house is worth they will say something like $150,000, or in the case of a 2-bedroom in California - $750,000. They may be correct, but that number will rise and fall week to week, no more steady then a dot-com stock. No, your house is worth some amount PER MONTH. You live in a $1,500/month house, or a $2,500/month house, and _that_ value will not change much. It will rise very slowly over time with inflation. Unless there is a local bubble, where both rents and housing go up, but rents have been dropping most places not rising. So back to the original point, what is the voodoo that keeps things going despite all evidence to the contrary? Interest rates. More specifically _dropping_ interest rates. Which leads to the magic process - refinancing. Ahh, refinancing, "re-fi", you've done it, everyone you know has done it, you are bombarded by spam to do it again! It slices, it dices, it's more fun then Disney World. Lets work with a house worth $1,200/month [1]. Say that you have a mortgage at 6% from way way back in 2002. Which means your house was worth about $142,000. But today you can walk in an refinance at 5%, you house has magically become worth about 152,000. A gain of $9,542.07 actually in not time at all. The housing section of your paper will say the same thing, as do the statistics. But it's still a $1,200/month house. That's $9,542.07 that you get to walk away with in cash to go out and spend. Voodoo money created not by home improvements but by a math equation. Mystery solved, housing going up in value and consumers spending like crazy. Can you guess what happens when interest rates stop going down? You could ask the Japanese, but I doubt you would like the answer. And I (like you) do not want to think about what happens when rates go up - and they must if the economy ever starts growing again. But for now be happy - if you still have a job and a house. In a few more months you can refinance at 4% and this time $10,484.29 will appear from nowhere. For now we have terrorists to worry about, code orange, wait yellow, no orange. Oh forget it, just go out and spend for your country. I predict rates will stop dropping the day of the 2004 presidential election. Then watch out below. But I could be wrong - they may not be able to hold it off that long. - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ -------------- [1] How much $1,200/month gets you on a 15yr fixed rate mortgage. 3% $173,766 4% $162,230 5% $151,746 6% $142,204 7% $133,507 8% $125,568 From beberg at mithral.com Sun Jun 1 03:51:47 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:56 2003 Subject: Bootcamp for Beberg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sunday, June 1, 2003, at 02:18 AM, Mr. FoRK wrote: > The presentation on 'real time enterprise' was interesting - fluffy, > but you > kind of see what they may have been trying to say Looks like most post-bubble presentation. Your standard customer value from day one, and lots of it. Plus patents from day zero, and even more of those. Still working on that second part. - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From owen at permafrost.net Sun Jun 1 13:14:18 2003 From: owen at permafrost.net (Owen Byrne) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:56 2003 Subject: Bootcamp for Beberg In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EDA184A.8070407@permafrost.net> Mr. FoRK wrote: >Here's some info from a VC firm - Insight Partners: >http://www.digitalchild.com/cgi-bin/insight/aspen > >The presentation on 'real time enterprise' was interesting - fluffy, but you >kind of see what they may have been trying to say > >Real Time Enterprise >http://www.digitalchild.com/cgi-bin/insight/aspen/real_time_enterprise/file/130 > > > Everytime I hear the words "Real Time Enterprise" I think of "The Beer Game" http://www.masystem.com/beergame and wonder - why nobody says that "real-time" might not be a good thing. Owen From geege at barrera.org Sun Jun 1 12:39:16 2003 From: geege at barrera.org (geege) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: Housing Voodoonomics In-Reply-To: <6496BFD0-9403-11D7-8765-003065DAE704@mithral.com> Message-ID: rates will begin to rise in early september '03, just before my car lease expires. i'm thinking of paying out the lease now to quicken the rate hike to mid june. cause/effect, geege -----Original Message----- From: fork-bounces@xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces@xent.com]On Behalf Of Adam L Beberg Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 12:34 AM To: FoRK Subject: Housing Voodoonomics By now we all know the U.S. economy is hurting. Jobs are disappearing overseas forever, the national and trade deficits are exploding, 49/50 state governments are broke and cutting services. The dollar is dropping so fast even the Canadians are starting to make dollar jokes. But two odd things are happening, houses just keep going up in value, and people keep spending. This makes no sense when most people are very worried about having a job tomorrow. First, you need to understand what your house is worth. If you ask someone what their house is worth they will say something like $150,000, or in the case of a 2-bedroom in California - $750,000. They may be correct, but that number will rise and fall week to week, no more steady then a dot-com stock. No, your house is worth some amount PER MONTH. You live in a $1,500/month house, or a $2,500/month house, and _that_ value will not change much. It will rise very slowly over time with inflation. Unless there is a local bubble, where both rents and housing go up, but rents have been dropping most places not rising. So back to the original point, what is the voodoo that keeps things going despite all evidence to the contrary? Interest rates. More specifically _dropping_ interest rates. Which leads to the magic process - refinancing. Ahh, refinancing, "re-fi", you've done it, everyone you know has done it, you are bombarded by spam to do it again! It slices, it dices, it's more fun then Disney World. Lets work with a house worth $1,200/month [1]. Say that you have a mortgage at 6% from way way back in 2002. Which means your house was worth about $142,000. But today you can walk in an refinance at 5%, you house has magically become worth about 152,000. A gain of $9,542.07 actually in not time at all. The housing section of your paper will say the same thing, as do the statistics. But it's still a $1,200/month house. That's $9,542.07 that you get to walk away with in cash to go out and spend. Voodoo money created not by home improvements but by a math equation. Mystery solved, housing going up in value and consumers spending like crazy. Can you guess what happens when interest rates stop going down? You could ask the Japanese, but I doubt you would like the answer. And I (like you) do not want to think about what happens when rates go up - and they must if the economy ever starts growing again. But for now be happy - if you still have a job and a house. In a few more months you can refinance at 4% and this time $10,484.29 will appear from nowhere. For now we have terrorists to worry about, code orange, wait yellow, no orange. Oh forget it, just go out and spend for your country. I predict rates will stop dropping the day of the 2004 presidential election. Then watch out below. But I could be wrong - they may not be able to hold it off that long. - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ -------------- [1] How much $1,200/month gets you on a 15yr fixed rate mortgage. 3% $173,766 4% $162,230 5% $151,746 6% $142,204 7% $133,507 8% $125,568 From gbolcer at endeavors.com Sun Jun 1 10:18:10 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: Bootcamp for Beberg References: <3EDA184A.8070407@permafrost.net> Message-ID: <3EDA2742.4C719CD5@endeavors.com> Owen Byrne wrote: > Everytime I hear the words "Real Time Enterprise" I think of "The Beer > Game" > http://www.masystem.com/beergame > > and wonder - why nobody says that "real-time" might not be a good thing. > > Owen In the words of a famous race car driver--the definition of speed is doing 32mph around a 30mph curve. "Real Time" is the same way, not to be confused with "Just in Time" and "Greedy" algorithms or "Straight Through Processing". Greg From rah at shipwright.com Sun Jun 1 17:07:40 2003 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: Taking an Axe to the Regulatory State: DeLay's CEI Annual Dinner Speech Message-ID: Majority Leader : Tom Delay Wednesday, May 21, 2003 Remarks to the Competitive Enterprise Institute's Annual Dinner In this time of partisanship and discord, there are three statements people in Washington seem able to agree on: One: "The federal regulatory state has grown too large and complicated to be accountable to the American people." Two: "The regulatory state needs reform." And, three: "I have no idea how to do it." It's the big problem, the one that matters most. It's the same problem we run into with Social Security, Medicare, and so many other government creations. However good Washington's intentions and well-thought-out our plans, unintended consequences eventually catch up. Then new regulations are "needed" to deal with those unintended consequences and the cycle - from flawed regulation to flawed, UPDATED regulation - spirals out of control from there. In Congress, where decision-makers face voters every two or six years, we tend to accept people on their own terms, and let them make their own decisions, so long as they do not unduly bother anyone else. Congressional action, for the most part, is designed to restrain the government's behavior. What should the government tax and how much? What should the government spend the taxpayers' money on?? That kind of thing. On the other hand, the regulatory state - much more than the legislative agenda of either house of Congress - is designed for the purpose of restraining the AMERICAN PEOPLE'S behavior. For good or bad, Americans like to do stuff. We are the freest nation in the history of the world, and the richest. Memo to the Democrats: that's not a coincidence. However flawed their execution, we must concede that the proponents of the regulatory state at least have a reasonable justification. It dates back to a single event, many years ago. You may have heard this story? It has to do with two nudists, an apple, the Tree of Knowledge, and a talking snake. Anyway, long story short: humans aren't perfect. And because we're not perfect, things we like to do are not always good for us. We eat foods like Oreos, hot dogs, and Twinkies. And we watch TV shows like? When Aardvarks Attack? Joe Millionaire? and the CBS Evening News. All of us have flaws. Even those of us who recycle? who drive electric Volvos? give money to National Public Radio? and refuse to eat anything that had parents. Yes, ladies and gentlemen? EVEN ALEC BALDWIN! But the difference between proponents of the regulatory state and the men and women in this room is a simple one. WE believe the uphill struggle for people of goodwill, despite their inherent flaws, to be the best people they can be is the responsibility of the individual. THEY believe perfections to the human race can be dictated from the state. If the government can write enough rules controlling enough aspects of our lives, they believe, people will no longer do anything wrong. But they don't see the inherent contradiction in their core belief, that is so glaring to all of us. If people are inherently flawed, then so too are the people who write all the regulations. That's why government bureaucrats shouldn't try to play God. First of all, they're no good at it. And secondly? the job's already taken. That's the genius of representative democracy. It's the only form of government yet conceived that accounts for man's inherent imperfection. After all, the people who make the rules are just as flawed as the rest of us. True, some are more flawed than others, but enough about the United Nations. In a democracy like ours, the government is made accountable to the people, so that if decision-makers make too many bad decisions, they can be replaced. Unfortunately, the regulatory state turns this process on its head. Not only are the people who make the rules that govern our lives unaccountable, they are downright hidden. They aren't elected, and in many cases, it's almost impossible to fire them. In an elected Congress, it can take years of hearings and negotiation and public debate before a bill becomes a law. But in the regulatory process, the federal Leviathan can enact pseudo-laws in a matter of weeks, and most are put on the books without Congress so much as noticing, let alone 270 million affected Americans. We don't notice because most Americans are too busy living their own lives to worry about the hand-wringing scolds populating the nanny state. We're too busy driving SUV's, smoking cigars, and flushing three-and-a-half-gallon toilets. All humor aside, ladies and gentlemen, this secrecy and unaccountability and what they mean for the future, is an emerging crisis in American government. Excessive regulations undermine our democratic institutions, the health of our economy, and the very property rights on which our nation was founded. When it comes to regulations, there is no avoiding the federal government. Right now, every day of your lives, you navigate thousands of federal regulations without even knowing it. From those ridiculous tags on the mattresses you wake up on to the over-regulation of the television networks you watch before going to bed, the regulatory state is everywhere. You may not notice it, but rest assured, you are paying for it. Estimates vary, but a Small Business Administration study reported the cost of the regulatory state to the American people had reached $800 billion. That means the regulatory Leviathan equals roughly 8 percent of the Gross Domestic Product of the United States. A typical American family, then, spends approximately $8,000 every year on hidden regulatory costs? more than it spends on food. These numbers are not a problem. They are a crisis. And if you think the situation is out of control now, rest assured, you can't even comprehend what would happen if the federal government started regulating energy along the lines of the Kyoto Treaty. Our energy is the basis of our economy, which is in turn the basis of our national security. The regulatory state will either be brought under control, or we will all suffer the consequences. As you probably know, I first got into politics in Texas because of the ludicrous regulation by the EPA on my own small business. And that was 20 years, and tens of thousands of regulations ago. The regulatory state has only grown worse in the interim, and not only on my old industry, but almost every industry. Of course some of the results have been positive, but do they merit the cost? Some say yes, some say no. But I say that question needs to be answered not by regulators with a vested interest in expanding their power, but by Congress, with a vested interest to serve the interests of its constituents. The regulatory state simply cannot be trusted to hold itself accountable. It has no voters, no constituents, no one to answer to. And with that free rein, Leviathan has run amok. In 2001 - under a conservative Republican administration, mind you -- federal agencies produced 64,431 PAGES of regulations to tell us all how we should live. That's 176 pages every day, including weekends! Ladies and gentlemen, it's time Congress told Leviathan to GET A LIFE! Congress is the branch of government most responsive and accountable to the people, so it's Congress who should be making - or at least approving - these rules. Right now, federal regulatory agencies, when proposing a new rule, are required to develop a cost-benefit analysis. But that agency has a vested interest in getting the rule imposed. We can't trust their analysis, particularly its attempt to quantify the BENEFITS of a new rule. Clearly, the rule will benefit THEM - after all, THEY wrote it - but what we in Congress ought to ask is, "Will it benefit the American people?" It should be Congress, and not hidden, unaccountable bureaucrats (or, for that matter, unaccountable judges), who write the laws. We not only need better accountability, but better accounting. How much do these regulations actually cost? To small businesses, to consumers, to the taxpayers? We must have clearer answers to these questions than the vague estimates of the regulators themselves. Or what about an easy-to-read Regulatory Report Card - as proposed by CEI - that Congress (and almost as importantly, the media) could sift through to determine which regulations are obviously failing to achieve their projected benefits. By size, by agency, by program? the format isn't as important as the concrete documentation. There's a reason why the regulatory state has grown out of control, and the reason is that no government organization has done the heavy lifting, every year, to keep tabs on it. Whether it's the Office of Management and Budget, the Congressional Budget Office, or some other agency, someone must be responsible for monitoring the regulators. Luckily, whoever it is will have an excellent model for their activities: the Competitive Enterprise Institute. The work this organization does has been invaluable and unique since its inception. No one else focuses on the regulatory state so acutely, and no one else puts their ideas into action with more vigor and intelligence. These guys really know their stuff? and I'm not just saying so because I've never disagreed with them on an important issue. CEI is a wonderful organization, and my good friend Fred Smith is a wonderful man. I thank them for all they do? for all of us. Ladies and gentlemen, your support for CEI is support for limited government. It is support for a stronger free market. And, most importantly, it's support for a steak dinner in the smoking section of your favorite restaurant. Thank you again, and God bless. -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From geege at barrera.org Sun Jun 1 19:44:10 2003 From: geege at barrera.org (geege) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: Taking an Axe to the Regulatory State: DeLay's CEI Annual Dinner Speech In-Reply-To: Message-ID: republicans: damn, he's smart. it's so simple: demcrats are trouble makers /spenders /taxers /roots of all evil. all our problems stem from their meddlesome social engineering. (mantra: i am a patriot, i am a patriot, i am a patriot.) democrats: dweeby AND divisive - no wonder he's their spokesperson. every time we bring up enron we get the same old same old: "democrats wnat to legislate behavior." what idiot STILL believes republicans are the party of accountability? (and who wrote his speech - limbaugh?) libertarians: asshole. we've been saying this all along, but we mean it when we say it. we think bush is a royalist. and talk about MEDDLESOME! where did my civil liberties go? (i wonder - can montana and idaho secede . . .?) -----Original Message----- From: fork-bounces@xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces@xent.com]On Behalf Of R. A. Hettinga Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 1:08 PM To: Clippable Cc: fork@xent.com Subject: Taking an Axe to the Regulatory State: DeLay's CEI Annual Dinner Speech Majority Leader : Tom Delay Wednesday, May 21, 2003 Remarks to the Competitive Enterprise Institute's Annual Dinner In this time of partisanship and discord, there are three statements people in Washington seem able to agree on: One: "The federal regulatory state has grown too large and complicated to be accountable to the American people." Two: "The regulatory state needs reform." And, three: "I have no idea how to do it." It's the big problem, the one that matters most. It's the same problem we run into with Social Security, Medicare, and so many other government creations. However good Washington's intentions and well-thought-out our plans, unintended consequences eventually catch up. Then new regulations are "needed" to deal with those unintended consequences and the cycle - from flawed regulation to flawed, UPDATED regulation - spirals out of control from there. In Congress, where decision-makers face voters every two or six years, we tend to accept people on their own terms, and let them make their own decisions, so long as they do not unduly bother anyone else. Congressional action, for the most part, is designed to restrain the government's behavior. What should the government tax and how much? What should the government spend the taxpayers' money on?? That kind of thing. On the other hand, the regulatory state - much more than the legislative agenda of either house of Congress - is designed for the purpose of restraining the AMERICAN PEOPLE'S behavior. For good or bad, Americans like to do stuff. We are the freest nation in the history of the world, and the richest. Memo to the Democrats: that's not a coincidence. However flawed their execution, we must concede that the proponents of the regulatory state at least have a reasonable justification. It dates back to a single event, many years ago. You may have heard this story? It has to do with two nudists, an apple, the Tree of Knowledge, and a talking snake. Anyway, long story short: humans aren't perfect. And because we're not perfect, things we like to do are not always good for us. We eat foods like Oreos, hot dogs, and Twinkies. And we watch TV shows like? When Aardvarks Attack? Joe Millionaire? and the CBS Evening News. All of us have flaws. Even those of us who recycle? who drive electric Volvos? give money to National Public Radio? and refuse to eat anything that had parents. Yes, ladies and gentlemen? EVEN ALEC BALDWIN! But the difference between proponents of the regulatory state and the men and women in this room is a simple one. WE believe the uphill struggle for people of goodwill, despite their inherent flaws, to be the best people they can be is the responsibility of the individual. THEY believe perfections to the human race can be dictated from the state. If the government can write enough rules controlling enough aspects of our lives, they believe, people will no longer do anything wrong. But they don't see the inherent contradiction in their core belief, that is so glaring to all of us. If people are inherently flawed, then so too are the people who write all the regulations. That's why government bureaucrats shouldn't try to play God. First of all, they're no good at it. And secondly? the job's already taken. That's the genius of representative democracy. It's the only form of government yet conceived that accounts for man's inherent imperfection. After all, the people who make the rules are just as flawed as the rest of us. True, some are more flawed than others, but enough about the United Nations. In a democracy like ours, the government is made accountable to the people, so that if decision-makers make too many bad decisions, they can be replaced. Unfortunately, the regulatory state turns this process on its head. Not only are the people who make the rules that govern our lives unaccountable, they are downright hidden. They aren't elected, and in many cases, it's almost impossible to fire them. In an elected Congress, it can take years of hearings and negotiation and public debate before a bill becomes a law. But in the regulatory process, the federal Leviathan can enact pseudo-laws in a matter of weeks, and most are put on the books without Congress so much as noticing, let alone 270 million affected Americans. We don't notice because most Americans are too busy living their own lives to worry about the hand-wringing scolds populating the nanny state. We're too busy driving SUV's, smoking cigars, and flushing three-and-a-half-gallon toilets. All humor aside, ladies and gentlemen, this secrecy and unaccountability and what they mean for the future, is an emerging crisis in American government. Excessive regulations undermine our democratic institutions, the health of our economy, and the very property rights on which our nation was founded. When it comes to regulations, there is no avoiding the federal government. Right now, every day of your lives, you navigate thousands of federal regulations without even knowing it. From those ridiculous tags on the mattresses you wake up on to the over-regulation of the television networks you watch before going to bed, the regulatory state is everywhere. You may not notice it, but rest assured, you are paying for it. Estimates vary, but a Small Business Administration study reported the cost of the regulatory state to the American people had reached $800 billion. That means the regulatory Leviathan equals roughly 8 percent of the Gross Domestic Product of the United States. A typical American family, then, spends approximately $8,000 every year on hidden regulatory costs? more than it spends on food. These numbers are not a problem. They are a crisis. And if you think the situation is out of control now, rest assured, you can't even comprehend what would happen if the federal government started regulating energy along the lines of the Kyoto Treaty. Our energy is the basis of our economy, which is in turn the basis of our national security. The regulatory state will either be brought under control, or we will all suffer the consequences. As you probably know, I first got into politics in Texas because of the ludicrous regulation by the EPA on my own small business. And that was 20 years, and tens of thousands of regulations ago. The regulatory state has only grown worse in the interim, and not only on my old industry, but almost every industry. Of course some of the results have been positive, but do they merit the cost? Some say yes, some say no. But I say that question needs to be answered not by regulators with a vested interest in expanding their power, but by Congress, with a vested interest to serve the interests of its constituents. The regulatory state simply cannot be trusted to hold itself accountable. It has no voters, no constituents, no one to answer to. And with that free rein, Leviathan has run amok. In 2001 - under a conservative Republican administration, mind you -- federal agencies produced 64,431 PAGES of regulations to tell us all how we should live. That's 176 pages every day, including weekends! Ladies and gentlemen, it's time Congress told Leviathan to GET A LIFE! Congress is the branch of government most responsive and accountable to the people, so it's Congress who should be making - or at least approving - these rules. Right now, federal regulatory agencies, when proposing a new rule, are required to develop a cost-benefit analysis. But that agency has a vested interest in getting the rule imposed. We can't trust their analysis, particularly its attempt to quantify the BENEFITS of a new rule. Clearly, the rule will benefit THEM - after all, THEY wrote it - but what we in Congress ought to ask is, "Will it benefit the American people?" It should be Congress, and not hidden, unaccountable bureaucrats (or, for that matter, unaccountable judges), who write the laws. We not only need better accountability, but better accounting. How much do these regulations actually cost? To small businesses, to consumers, to the taxpayers? We must have clearer answers to these questions than the vague estimates of the regulators themselves. Or what about an easy-to-read Regulatory Report Card - as proposed by CEI - that Congress (and almost as importantly, the media) could sift through to determine which regulations are obviously failing to achieve their projected benefits. By size, by agency, by program? the format isn't as important as the concrete documentation. There's a reason why the regulatory state has grown out of control, and the reason is that no government organization has done the heavy lifting, every year, to keep tabs on it. Whether it's the Office of Management and Budget, the Congressional Budget Office, or some other agency, someone must be responsible for monitoring the regulators. Luckily, whoever it is will have an excellent model for their activities: the Competitive Enterprise Institute. The work this organization does has been invaluable and unique since its inception. No one else focuses on the regulatory state so acutely, and no one else puts their ideas into action with more vigor and intelligence. These guys really know their stuff? and I'm not just saying so because I've never disagreed with them on an important issue. CEI is a wonderful organization, and my good friend Fred Smith is a wonderful man. I thank them for all they do? for all of us. Ladies and gentlemen, your support for CEI is support for limited government. It is support for a stronger free market. And, most importantly, it's support for a steak dinner in the smoking section of your favorite restaurant. Thank you again, and God bless. -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From joe at barrera.org Sun Jun 1 16:57:54 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: Taking an Axe to the Regulatory State: DeLay's CEI AnnualDinner Speech In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EDA84F2.2080503@barrera.org> geege wrote: > libertarians: asshole. we've been saying this all along, but we mean it > when we say it. we think bush is a royalist. and talk about MEDDLESOME! > where did my civil liberties go? (i wonder - can montana and idaho secede . > . .?) No: a much earlier Republican saw to that; I'm sure the current crop in power would be no more lenient. But: there's always Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba, or if you really want to get away from it all, the Northwest Territories... - Joe From cherot at herot.com Sun Jun 1 21:54:34 2003 From: cherot at herot.com (Christopher Herot) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: waste testbed In-Reply-To: <2466003E-93CD-11D7-8765-003065DAE704@mithral.com> Message-ID: <003f01c328a1$8974ba40$f400a8c0@appliedmessaging.com> You may be right that the average person's respect for copyrights and patents are getting weaker, but the action in Washington seems to be the opposite, e.g. DMCA, Sony Bono extension, and various proposals from Fritz Hollings. In the end, "intellectual property" is not the same as tangible property and means whatever the elected representatives say it means - no more and no less. I worry more about losing the right to do as I please with my computer in the privacy of my own home than I worry about the "entertainment" budgets of some overpaid record company execs. > -----Original Message----- > From: fork-bounces@xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces@xent.com] On Behalf Of Adam L Beberg > Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 9:06 PM > > The social aspect is that study after study shows that a very tiny > fraction of people under 18 view downloading music/movies/software as > theft. Anything they can do must be OK to do. Unfortunately that > mindset seems to go far beyond downloading. > > I'd venture the only way to create a scenario where they would classify > something as theft is one where you take their stuff, but even then > they don't seem to mind from the stories I hear. > > The bottom line is that copyrights (P2P) and patents (Asia) are > becoming weaker and weaker ways to keep your stuff from getting stolen, > both in the legal world and the social one. And I don't see that trend > reversing anytime soon. > > I wonder how this related to the fact that we're a consumer/service > culture now. Most children probably have no exposure or concept of > working a farm or building stuff in a factory, so to them, these things > just magically appear at the mall. So taking them is no big deal. > > - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com > http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From beberg at mithral.com Sun Jun 1 21:40:47 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: waste testbed In-Reply-To: <003f01c328a1$8974ba40$f400a8c0@appliedmessaging.com> Message-ID: <3BDE8916-949B-11D7-9111-003065DAE704@mithral.com> On Sunday, June 1, 2003, at 07:54 PM, Christopher Herot wrote: > You may be right that the average person's respect for copyrights and > patents are getting weaker, but the action in Washington seems to be > the opposite, e.g. DMCA, Sony Bono extension, and various proposals > from Fritz Hollings. > > In the end, "intellectual property" is not the same as tangible > property and means whatever the elected representatives say it means - > no more and no less. I worry more about losing the right to do as I > please with my computer in the privacy of my own home than I worry > about the "entertainment" budgets of some overpaid record company > execs. Laws only matter as far as they are enforceable, and copyright is certainly not. If you can view it you can copy it. You can see the movie industry fighting back as best they can. A movie is an "event" now. If you don't go see it the first weekend, you're behind the times, and since there is another "event" the next week, you'll just miss it completely. I expect this "forcing of the now" to continue to get worse. See it before the download can complete, or don't see it at all. As for the DMCA and all, if the hardware wont record, why the hell would you buy it? A VCR is _for_ recording. A CDROM is _for_ recording. And the Microsoft lockdown is going to make the computer useless. So the public wins this one, copyrights and patents will continue to dissolve until they are completely useless. For music they are already long gone, software is almost completely gone, movies are headed that way. If you actually invent and build things, well, you're screwed. Join the service industry like everyone else. - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From fork_list at hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 22:17:08 2003 From: fork_list at hotmail.com (Mr. FoRK) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: Bootcamp for Beberg References: <3EDA184A.8070407@permafrost.net> <3EDA2742.4C719CD5@endeavors.com> Message-ID: > > "Real Time" is the same way, not to be confused with > "Just in Time" and "Greedy" algorithms or "Straight > Through Processing". Cool... how does 'real time enterprise' differ from 'Straight Through Processing' (& JIT)? From jbone at deepfile.com Mon Jun 2 00:41:11 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: [BITS] "You can't smoke that thing in public" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6F26CCB8-94B4-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> On Saturday, May 31, 2003, at 08:04 US/Central, Russell Turpin wrote: > Jeff Bone: >> Challenge me on this, Turpin, I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU. I have >> *pictures.* > > All I can think in response is that I need to > stop partying with people who have cameras. > > ;-) To come clean: I have no such pictures, I just thought it'd be fun to get Russell to wrack his brain a bit. ;-) Sorry Russell, that was cheap and too easy. Fun, though. ;-) jb From deafbox at hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 13:33:20 2003 From: deafbox at hotmail.com (Russell Turpin) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: [BITS] "You can't smoke that thing in public" Message-ID: Jeff Bone: >To come clean: I have no such pictures, I just thought it'd be fun to get >Russell to wrack his brain a bit. ;-) I learned a long time ago not to wrack my brain too much when someone says, "I have a picture of you doing X at that party in 199x." So much for my political future. What's the time limit on "youthful misadventures"? _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From beberg at mithral.com Mon Jun 2 09:07:33 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: [BITS] "You can't smoke that thing in public" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2C8FE5F5-94FB-11D7-BC98-003065DAE704@mithral.com> On Monday, June 2, 2003, at 07:33 AM, Russell Turpin wrote: > I learned a long time ago not to wrack my brain > too much when someone says, "I have a picture > of you doing X at that party in 199x." So much > for my political future. What's the time limit on > "youthful misadventures"? I'm saving all the "Huh, what, me? when?"'s and drooling for when I'm old. I hear it works out better that way ;) I should get started on misadventure planning tho, gonna need to start having some for my midlife crisis right? - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From dl at silcom.com Mon Jun 2 09:34:16 2003 From: dl at silcom.com (Dave Long) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: Graduation 03 In-Reply-To: Message from "Mr. FoRK" Message-ID: <200306021534.IAA10081@maltesecat> > Hey, that's about right... take away funding until teachers improve testing > scores! Darn straight. Why are they all in education, when they could be doing something to add economic value, as casino workers obviously do? * :: At first I thought the problem was just that we needed to teach these students how to bluff in imitation of a modernized ELIZA: > The similarity between resulting vectors for words and contexts, > as measured by the cosine of their contained angle, has been > shown to closely mimic human judgments of meaning similarity and > human performance based on such similarity in a variety of ways. > For example, after training on about 2,000 pages of English text > it scored as well as average test-takers on the synonym portion > of TOEFL-the ETS Test of English as a Foreign Language (Landauer & > Dumais, 1997). After training on an introductory psychology textbook > it achieved a passing score on a multiple-choice exam (Landauer, > Foltz & Laham, in prep). but the Post article says that it's the math sections, not the written, that cause so much grief. A latent semantic proggie might have trouble in the same parts. Is it possible students, like these programs, do too well with gateway thinking (M-x student) for most of their subjects, and hence are never tempted to try the hard stuff? -Dave :: :: :: * > Nevada students are required to pass tests in reading, writing and > math as a condition for graduation. Officials said that fewer than 2 > percent of the state's seniors have failed the reading and writing > portions. But the 60-question math exam has proven much more > difficult. > > In fast-growing Clark County, which includes Las Vegas, almost a > quarter of the high school seniors had not passed the exam before the > most recent round of testing on May 20. Part of the problem is that > many students -- as many as 40 percent statewide -- have never taken > algebra or geometry, which are included on the test. Also, school > officials said, the fast-growing and financially strapped school > district struggles to find qualified math teachers. > > "We have a constant effort to provide training for teachers," said > Agustin Orci, deputy superintendent for instruction in Clark County > schools. "But the attrition rate is high. There are many, many > positions in the casino industry here that pay the same or more as a > teaching job." From elias at cse.ucsc.edu Mon Jun 2 10:38:36 2003 From: elias at cse.ucsc.edu (Elias Sinderson) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: Graduation 03 References: <200306021534.IAA10081@maltesecat> Message-ID: <3EDB7D8C.6000008@cse.ucsc.edu> Dave Long wrote: >* > > >>[...] >>"We have a constant effort to provide training for teachers," said Agustin Orci, deputy superintendent for instruction in Clark County schools. "But the attrition rate is high. There are many, many positions in the casino industry here that pay the same or more as a teaching job." >> >> I was just in Vegas and talked to a some of the casino workers at the tables while I was throwing my money away. I was told that they work for minimum wage + tips, essentially grafting the lions share of their paycheck from the luck of generous high-rollers. On average this probably does work out to be more than a teaching job commands (a pathetic commentary on what a school teachers percieved worth is, no doubt), but I question what the standard deviation is. Supporting a family in this manner doesn't sound like a winning proposition to me and, given only those two options, would likely opt for the steadier albeit lower, average income. Unfortunately it doesn't sound like Nevada's children have the '133t m@t# 5ki11z' necessary to make such a comparison... Elias From elias at cse.ucsc.edu Mon Jun 2 11:12:26 2003 From: elias at cse.ucsc.edu (Elias Sinderson) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: [Fwd: [FYI] Mars Express launch webcast] Message-ID: <3EDB857A.4010100@cse.ucsc.edu> In case your Monday is a little slow... Elias -------- Original Message -------- For those interested in following the progress of other Mars exploration efforts, there is a live webcast of the Mars Express / Beagle2 launch at 1745UTC today. If my math is any good that's in less than an hour. http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/ From tomwhore at slack.net Mon Jun 2 14:17:58 2003 From: tomwhore at slack.net (Tom) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: Shake the dieases Message-ID: Being at the place I work for over 6 years now I have become somewhat rusty, if by rusty you mean I couldn't code my way out of a paper bag in logo. Ok its not that bad, but after a weekend of talking to folks about c# and large scale dev I feel totally unmarketable. So what would folks recommend for a start at working off the ring rust? -tomwsmf From gbolcer at endeavors.com Mon Jun 2 11:18:42 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: Bootcamp for Beberg References: <3EDA184A.8070407@permafrost.net> <3EDA2742.4C719CD5@endeavors.com> Message-ID: <3EDB86F2.6080909@endeavors.com> Mr. FoRK wrote: >>"Real Time" is the same way, not to be confused with >>"Just in Time" and "Greedy" algorithms or "Straight >>Through Processing". > > > Cool... how does 'real time enterprise' differ from 'Straight Through > Processing' (& JIT)? JIT = IBM/HP = On Demand Computing = Infrastructure = Hardware + Software STP = Oracle/Peoplesoft/Siebel/SAP/Microsoft = Operations = PRM/(e)CRM + Process Real Time Enterprise = ? = Events = Infrastructure + Operations + Applications + Events Greg -- Gregory Alan Bolcer, CTO | work: +1.949.833.2800 gbolcer at endeavors.com | http://endeavors.com Endeavors Technology, Inc.| cell: +1.714.928.5476 From elias at cse.ucsc.edu Mon Jun 2 11:29:12 2003 From: elias at cse.ucsc.edu (Elias Sinderson) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: Shake the dieases References: Message-ID: <3EDB8968.4060909@cse.ucsc.edu> I have the clear and distinct impression that you have a fairly low tolerance for pedantic little exercises (a la 'Learn X in 24 hours') when picking up new languages, technologies, etc. As such, my recommendation is to first choose a technology that you want to learn more about and then select an open source project based on, or using, said technology that can act as a whetstone to hone your 5ki11z. Some things, such as Ant, are used pretty ubiquitously, while others less so, but you'll be hard pressed to identify any burgeoning technology that isn't being used by some OS project. Being able to say 'applied X on project Y' on your CV is worth a hell of a lot more than 'knowledgeable of X'... Cheers, Elias Tom wrote: >Being at the place I work for over 6 years now I have become somewhat >rusty, if by rusty you mean I couldn't code my way out of a paper bag in >logo. Ok its not that bad, but after a weekend of talking to folks about >c# and large scale dev I feel totally unmarketable. > >So what would folks recommend for a start at working off the ring rust? > >-tomwsmf > > From fork at ordersomewherechaos.com Mon Jun 2 11:58:06 2003 From: fork at ordersomewherechaos.com (RossO) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: Taxman (Was: Graduation 03) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From: "Adam L Beberg" >> Think americans ever get their heads out of their asses about >> education? I know the school budgets around this area all took severe >> hits this year. Will likely take them next year as well. So why don't we do it this way: 1) Set all government budgets in terms of percentages. Wouldn't this focus the debates back to the proper role of government spending? Extend this to income as well as expenses, where taxes would be generated to meet a target of x% of the taxpayer's GDP? 1b) Could state budgets then be collected a set aside to be the budget for the following fiscal year thereby potentially eliminating the type of shortfall that most governments have seen in the past couple of years because actual income didn't match the 'projected' rates? 2) Should the federal government collect all of their taxes through the States rather than directly from individuals? Would this give States more leverage in terms of the blackmail that the federal government imposes on occasion: "Build up your Drug War staff or else we'll pull your federal highway funding" scenarios? Just some weekend thoughts. ...Ross... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Hot Pepper Studios :: http://www.hotpepper.com Proud sponsor of WebVisions 2003 :: http://www.webvisionsevent.org July 18, Portland, Oregon :: Oregon Convention Center From jbone at deepfile.com Mon Jun 2 14:09:04 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: Taxman (Was: Graduation 03) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4B78BDB4-9525-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> On Monday, Jun 2, 2003, at 12:58 US/Central, RossO wrote: > So why don't we do it this way: > > 1) Set all government budgets in terms of percentages. Wouldn't this > focus the debates back to the proper role of government spending? > Extend this to income as well as expenses, where taxes would be > generated to meet a target of x% of the taxpayer's GDP? This is a good idea. > 1b) Could state budgets then be collected a set aside to be the budget > for the following fiscal year thereby potentially eliminating the type > of shortfall that most governments have seen in the past couple of > years because actual income didn't match the 'projected' rates? This is a good idea. > 2) Should the federal government collect all of their taxes through > the States rather than directly from individuals? Would this give > States more leverage in terms of the blackmail that the federal > government imposes on occasion: "Build up your Drug War staff or else > we'll pull your federal highway funding" scenarios? This is a good idea on several levels. One thing this accomplishes is that it improves the efficiencies of the tax collection process and makes sure that dollars flowing through the system retain as much value as possible. Another thing having states collect federal taxes accomplishes is that it really underscores at the state level the redistribution of wealth. States take in X, shunt X up to the fed, then get Y in benefits back. For most states, Y is significantly less than X. In which case, the state has to ask "where is the difference between X and Y going? Who's getting it?" Part of the reason so much pork gets spread around is because it is used as grease in political wheeling and dealing up on Capitol Hill that isn't particularly visible unless you're paying attention. Overall, I'm in. Problem is, I don't see how you get started. Washington doesn't want to be restricted like this. jb From fork at ordersomewherechaos.com Mon Jun 2 11:58:06 2003 From: fork at ordersomewherechaos.com (RossO) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: Taxman (Was: Graduation 03) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From: "Adam L Beberg" >> Think americans ever get their heads out of their asses about >> education? I know the school budgets around this area all took severe >> hits this year. Will likely take them next year as well. So why don't we do it this way: 1) Set all government budgets in terms of percentages. Wouldn't this focus the debates back to the proper role of government spending? Extend this to income as well as expenses, where taxes would be generated to meet a target of x% of the taxpayer's GDP? 1b) Could state budgets then be collected a set aside to be the budget for the following fiscal year thereby potentially eliminating the type of shortfall that most governments have seen in the past couple of years because actual income didn't match the 'projected' rates? 2) Should the federal government collect all of their taxes through the States rather than directly from individuals? Would this give States more leverage in terms of the blackmail that the federal government imposes on occasion: "Build up your Drug War staff or else we'll pull your federal highway funding" scenarios? Just some weekend thoughts. ...Ross... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Hot Pepper Studios :: http://www.hotpepper.com Proud sponsor of WebVisions 2003 :: http://www.webvisionsevent.org July 18, Portland, Oregon :: Oregon Convention Center From fork at ordersomewherechaos.com Mon Jun 2 12:18:21 2003 From: fork at ordersomewherechaos.com (RossO) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: Taxman (Was: Graduation 03) In-Reply-To: <4B78BDB4-9525-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> Message-ID: <97539BF8-9526-11D7-84E5-00039344DDD6@ordersomewherechaos.com> On Monday, June 2, 2003, at 11:09 AM, Jeff Bone wrote: > On Monday, Jun 2, 2003, at 12:58 US/Central, RossO wrote: >> 1) Set all government budgets in terms of percentages. > >> 1b) Could state budgets then be collected for the following fiscal >> year. > >> 2) Federal government should collect all of their taxes through the >> States > > Problem is, I don't see how you get started. Washington doesn't want > to be restricted like this. Could a single State do this on their own? Provide the tax payment for all state residents in lieu of the mass April 15th mailing? Oregon or Montana might be a fertile ground for this. ...Ross... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Hot Pepper Studios :: http://www.hotpepper.com Proud sponsor of WebVisions 2003 :: http://www.webvisionsevent.org July 18, Portland, Oregon :: Oregon Convention Center From jbone at deepfile.com Mon Jun 2 14:20:02 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:57 2003 Subject: Shake the [ANT] disease In-Reply-To: <3EDB8968.4060909@cse.ucsc.edu> Message-ID: On Monday, Jun 2, 2003, at 12:29 US/Central, Elias Sinderson wrote: > Some things, such as Ant Sorry, just wanted to throw in my $0.02... sorry if this offends the sensibilities of any Ant contributors who might lurk, but this is pure unadulterated undiluted opinion, here. Ant is IMHO absolutely unequivocally hands down the WORST build system ever conceived, and quite possibly the worst piece of software development technology ever created. It is damn nigh unusable, and the developers should be taken out behind the barn and put down. Good tools make the easy things easy, and the hard things possible... Ant makes even the very trivial astoundingly tedious, and I haven't gotten past that fact to know whether it enables things not possible with stock make. (Its own Web page claims that its approach "removes some of the expressive power that is inherent by being able to construct a shell command." What a selling point! Not!) The one thing supposedly in its favor is that it's "cross platform." More or less, or so it claims. But of course that's not really true, as you're going to want to do platform-specific things in any build process and it's not really possible to totally abstract all those things in a platform-independent way. Ant claims that it's shell-independent; it is --- it achieves this by being extensible *IN JAVA*, and for many things (like running ranlib) you're going to end up writing Java wrappers that call out to system utilities! Another layer of crap for absolutely no benefit, and in a lower-level language (Java) than the shell. Ant claims it solves the dreaded "tab problem" with make... sure, by substituting a torturous, verbose, dense, and difficult-to-read XML format. Ant is a perfect example of "big hammer, everything's a nail" disease. In this case the hammer is XML, which while being a wonderful data exchange format is not the most human-writable syntax out there for all tasks, certainly not for building software. But go ahead --- don't take my word for it. Try writing and maintaining some builds w/ Ant. It fucking blows chunks. I tried it out on a little pet project and spent more time fucking with Ant than with writing the code Ant was supposed to build. NB: go check out which Apache projects *don't* use Ant. GNU make, autoconf, automake, and libtool are your friends. Learn 'em, live 'em, love 'em. FWIW, Tom, I happen to think Python is quite marketable. (Hint, hint. ;-) Fight the anti-productive Java / C# hype wave. Just say no. You can get more accomplished more quickly and efficiently using the tools you already know. And getting things done is much more important from a marketability perspective than any buzzwords on a resume. jb From deafbox at hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 19:45:50 2003 From: deafbox at hotmail.com (Russell Turpin) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Taxman (Was: Graduation 03) Message-ID: Consider, also: (3) Activities that shouldn't be subsidized should be paid by fees on the activity, rather than through general taxes. In particular, roads and highways should be paid entirely from fees on fuel, vehicles, passage, etc. That would do a lot to alleviate state and municipality budgets. If that proposal sounds extreme, consider that street car lines were once run in a fashion that helped pay for the schools: they were private businesses that had to pay tax on land they used. Of course, weening Americans from subsidized automobile travel will be a political fight about as pleasant as separating a polar bear from her cubs. It's the true third rail of American politics. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From gtn at rbii.com Mon Jun 2 16:18:27 2003 From: gtn at rbii.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Shake the [ANT] disease In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200306021518.27020.gtn@rbii.com> On Monday 02 June 2003 02:20 pm, Jeff Bone wrote: > Ant is IMHO absolutely unequivocally hands down the WORST build system > ever conceived, and quite possibly the worst piece of software > development technology ever created. FWIW. I'm in agreement... my first reaction to Ant was to write Ante, something *like* Ant, but which at least had some notion of variable scoping and call structure, by using XEXPR (the immutable properties in Ant are a pain in the ass without some call scoping for redefining the parameters). My next reaction was to put up with it, and to write Anvil and Forge, the project definition and build systems we use internally. My third reaction was to breath a sigh of relief as things like Maven started taking off, which has a so-so scripting language in it at least. >It fucking blows chunks. I tried it out on a little pet project and >spent more time fucking with Ant than with writing the code Ant was >supposed to build. I wrote a few extensions and a whole lot of Ant code for our build system. Now I write about 5 lines and the code builds nicely, we get tests run and all the other good stuff. Getting there sucked... I should have probably released Ante and tried to kill Ant ;-) There's actually a lot of open source software that is pretty poor quality, and a fair amount ends up at Apache (hells teeth, the original server wasn't even exactly the epitome of good server design). Xerces sucked for the longest time in that it relied upon finalization for clearing out certain fixed-sized tables internally (it'd work fine when thrashing away in GC land on small systems, and fall apart on larger systems that didn't GC). Xindice still sucks in many ways... Of course, people say "open source, so fix it", which is OK, except that you end up with the Java equivalent of DLL hell because people ship with crappy stuff, and mess with the classloaders making it hard to load up the fixed version. Then you end up having to deal with the legacy systems that are already shipping as well as trying to do the right thing. I seriously wish I could spend the time needed to work on some of the open-source code, and fix it, but there's more to it than just the code. This has devolved into a flame, so I may as well finish it ;-) The other thing that really, really bites is that there is a lot of subtle incest between all the various packages such that it is often hard to pull out just the bits you want.... instead you have to bite off a whole new closed world (logging is a good example). Aspect-oriented programming might be the answer for some of these things... but even then, I think it's often easier just to write the code yourself.... From joe at barrera.org Mon Jun 2 13:49:46 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Shake the [ANT] disease In-Reply-To: <200306021518.27020.gtn@rbii.com> References: <200306021518.27020.gtn@rbii.com> Message-ID: <3EDBAA5A.20606@barrera.org> Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote: > On Monday 02 June 2003 02:20 pm, Jeff Bone wrote: > >> Ant is IMHO absolutely unequivocally hands down the WORST build system >> ever conceived, and quite possibly the worst piece of software development >> technology ever created. > > FWIW. I'm in agreement... Gosh. And all along I though it was just me. - Joe From beberg at mithral.com Mon Jun 2 15:53:33 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Taxman (Was: Graduation 03) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Monday, June 2, 2003, at 12:58 PM, RossO wrote: > So why don't we do it this way: > > 1) > 1b) > 2) Because sooner or later, 99% is spent subsidizing the auto industry by building all those "free" roads. So it just wouldn't look good. On the plus site, the light rail they ripped out 30 years ago is slowly going back in. And OPEC has pledged to drop any supply that Bush adds in Iraq - expect another war soon :) - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From jm at jmason.org Mon Jun 2 14:12:41 2003 From: jm at jmason.org (Justin Mason) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Shake the [ANT] disease In-Reply-To: Message from "Joseph S. Barrera III" of "Mon, 02 Jun 2003 12:49:46 PDT." <3EDBAA5A.20606@barrera.org> Message-ID: <20030602201247.0893D16F11@jmason.org> Joseph S. Barrera III said: > Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote: > > On Monday 02 June 2003 02:20 pm, Jeff Bone wrote: > > > >> Ant is IMHO absolutely unequivocally hands down the WORST build system > >> ever conceived, and quite possibly the worst piece of software development > >> technology ever created. > > > > FWIW. I'm in agreement... > > Gosh. And all along I though it was just me. Has anyone tried JAM/MR? Given that it's an open source tool from the Perforce guys, and given my experience with Perforce as **the best versioning platform ever** ;), I would imagine it probably rocks. But I haven't been in a position to use it since I found it (*), so I don't know yet. http://www.perforce.com/jam/jam.html (*: SpamAssassin uses ExtUtils::MakeMaker, ie. perl's make abstraction layer, which sucks, a bit. but that's what happens when you use CPAN for distribution, you've got to play by the perl packaging format rules.) --j. From Kenneth.Meltsner at ca.com Mon Jun 2 17:30:53 2003 From: Kenneth.Meltsner at ca.com (Meltsner, Kenneth) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Shake the dieases Message-ID: <039E46C3C030AE4E871CEEBC6868063901F85571@usilms24.ca.com> Java? It sure beats Visual Basic.... The good news is that most people don't like (for good reasons, it turns out) the complexity associated with the fancier J2EE components. Plain Old Java Objects have become a mantra for many programmers. From jamesr at best.com Mon Jun 2 16:49:26 2003 From: jamesr at best.com (James Rogers) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Shake the [ANT] disease In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005101c32959$38635d10$f200000a@avalon> Jeff Bone wrote: > > Ant is IMHO absolutely unequivocally hands down the WORST > build system > ever conceived, and quite possibly the worst piece of software > development technology ever created. Preach it, brother! I've never understood Ant either. In my experience all it does is make painful that which could be easy. Even though it isn't perfect, I prefer to use "make". > FWIW, Tom, I happen to think Python is quite marketable. > Fight the anti-productive Java / C# hype wave. I generally agree with this. A lot of development is done in Java, such that I find myself doing a lot of Java code, but as a development platform it is an answer looking for a question because it tries to be everything to everyone -- jack of all trades, ace of none. As far as I can tell C# is the same story with a slightly different wrapper. If I really need to get the job done, Python or C/C++ is my tool of choice depending on what I need to do, and I often have parallel trees in these languages, prototyping and high-level testing in Python and then pushing the changes into C/C++ if I need to and have the time. (My C++ is generally more like "C+" because I only slap a small subset of useful C++ features onto C.) I've hacked lots of Java in my day, but it seems like a half-assed language that tries to straddle the gap between Python and C/C++ while providing the core benefits of neither. Perhaps interestingly, Java-to-C++ generates roughly a 1:1 LoC conversion for the types of systems I generally write, whereas Python-to-C++ seems to have about a 1:4 LoC conversion. Cheers, -James Rogers jamesr@best.com From eh at mad.scientist.com Mon Jun 2 21:25:15 2003 From: eh at mad.scientist.com (Eirikur Hallgrimsson) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: pleasantly surprised by Freetrade.com In-Reply-To: <3BDE8916-949B-11D7-9111-003065DAE704@mithral.com> References: <3BDE8916-949B-11D7-9111-003065DAE704@mithral.com> Message-ID: <200306022025.15740.eh@mad.scientist.com> Thought I might mention my new account at Freetrade, because I am extremely happy with it. Not that anyone else wants to be in the market at this point (but *maybe* this is a good time to enter). Per month fees: 1st 20 trades: No commission 21-100: $3.00 101-200: $2.00 201-and up: $1.00 For this basically impossible to beat commission schedule you get transaction speed/quality that's on the level of Datek. It probably is Datek's routing technology. Direct routing is not offered. I am unconvinced that specifying the direct route to a marketmaker gives (me) better results than Datek's routing. The auto-routing frequently improves a trade. That's my actual experience. Freetrade doesn't advertise that, but Datek does. It's another thing that makes me think this is Datek stuff behind the scenes. Free trade is a no-frills division of Ameritrade. You can't get phone support. They don't deal with certificates or physical paper. No fancy web pages. And there's no catch that I can find after a rigorous shakedown cruise. Oh, you do pay the per-share SEC transaction fee, which has added $1.00 to a few transactions. They cooperate with QuoteTracker (QuoteTracker.com), which is free, or pay $60.00/year to nuke the ads. Freetrade charges for streaming realtime quotes, but there are free sources of those (Scottrade is the obvious one). It strikes me that Freetrade is a very good option for several classes of investor, and the best option that I know of for two: 1) Low-capital investor seeking growth. Get all transactions free. 2) Penny-stock lottery fan. There are stocks out there that cost less than the commission at even the day-trader outfits. My friend George has a lot of stock (had a dot com career) that's under a cent. He loves Freetrade. They can do transactions in very small fractions of a cent, and they don't charge extra for it. At a typical web broker, you can't even enter fractions of a cent. This means you can't trade stocks that cost less than a dime without 10% "slippage." When's the last time you heard that I was extremely happy with something? Eirikur From joe at barrera.org Mon Jun 2 18:29:44 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Heartwarming quote of the day -or- so that's what daughters are good for Message-ID: <3EDBEBF8.6080508@barrera.org> "All of us will become suicide bombers," said former [Iraqi Army] officer Khairi Jassim. "I will turn my six daughters into bombs to kill the Americans." from: Iraqi Troops, Tribes to U.S.: Leave or Face War http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=574&u=/nm/iraq_army_dc&printer=1 From vpinaki at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 04:47:08 2003 From: vpinaki at hotmail.com (Pinaki V) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: DV on rise in upper-middle class elite in India Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lair.xent.com/pipermail/fork/attachments/20030603/707c6874/attachment.htm From rah at shipwright.com Tue Jun 3 01:44:26 2003 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Sky Dayton Hillsdale Speech: Education in the Internet Age Message-ID: May 2003 Imprimis Education in the Internet Age Sky Dayton Sky Dayton, the founder and chairman of EarthLink and the founder and CEO of Boingo Wireless, was introduced to computers in 1980, when he was nine years old, by his grandfather, an IBM Fellow. He graduated from the Delphian School, a private boarding high school, in 1988 and decided to forgo college to pursue his interests in technology. After two years managing the computer graphics departments of two advertising firms, he co-founded the Caf? Mocha coffee house in West Hollywood, California. In 1992, while still managing the coffee house, he co-founded Dayton Walker Design, a computer graphics boutique catering to the entertainment industry. In 1994, he founded EarthLink, which is now the largest independent Internet service provider in the U.S., with five million customers, over $1 billion in annual revenue and thousands of employees. He launched Boingo Wireless in December 2001. Mr. Dayton and his wife, Arwen, live in Los Angeles. The following is abridged from a speech delivered at a Hillsdale College seminar in Rancho Mirage, California, on February 18, 2003. Education in the Internet Age I was first introduced to Hillsdale College and its speaker tradition in 1985, when I was 14 years old. I had recently enrolled at a private boarding school that occupied a converted Jesuit monastery atop a hill in the Oregon countryside. It was a fall day, and I was in the school library working on an assignment. After a while, I glanced around and noticed the library magazine rack nearby. Among the current periodicals, the school kept a stack of Imprimis issues. I picked one up and noticed the motto under the title: "Because ideas have consequences." This struck a chord with me. It was simple and powerful, and it fit with how I was raised. But I realized even then that the popular culture I had been exposed to as a teenager was lined up diametrically against this concept. An underpinning of the MTV generation, my generation, was that things like personal feelings ranked higher in importance than ideas, personal responsibility or morality. "Because ideas have consequences" is perhaps especially resonant in the Internet Age, when one thought or idea can travel thousands of miles and touch millions of people in a second. So today I want to talk about what the Internet means for our culture and the free exchange of ideas, and why, through my rough-and-tumble experience as an entrepreneur, I have come to believe that great education is now more important than ever. The Internet and the Media In the past ten years, the Internet has become the most powerful communications medium ever invented, surpassing radio, television and the telephone in its potential for mass communication. In fact, recently, the amount of email and other data traffic flowing across the Internet has surpassed the amount of traffic generated by telephone calls. This is less than ten years after the invention of the commercial Internet. The technology underlying the Internet is tremendously more efficient than any previous communications technology. Activities that used to be very costly are now nearly free. For example, you can now make phone calls over the Internet. A call from here to Africa that costs $3 per minute using AT&T is nearly free using the Internet. This technology is relatively new, but with cost savings like that you can expect everyone to be using it in the coming years. My generation takes the Internet for granted. It's woven into the fabric of our lives. On the eve of Valentine's Day this year, I was sitting on a plane in Seattle waiting to fly home when the pilot announced a delay in our departure. So I took out my laptop and connected to the airport's wireless Internet network. While checking my email, I started exchanging text instant messages with my wife back home. At the same time, I had a hand-held wireless Internet device with a camera attached to it. After breaking the news that I'd be home late, I took a picture of my face and sent it to her with a Valentine's Day message. Events like this are occurring millions of times a day. People are using the Internet in many different ways, but the common thread is that they're communicating more, with more people, faster, more easily and at a lower cost than ever before possible. The Internet is also shifting the balance of power with regard to who controls the information we receive. Before the Internet, access to communications media was limited to the few entities capable of mustering the millions or billions of dollars necessary to purchase expensive printing presses and distribution systems or scarce broadcast spectrum. High costs served as a barrier to entry for anyone who wanted to promulgate their ideas over a broad area. Now, anyone with a computer and an Internet connection has the potential to reach anyone else in the world at almost no cost. I stress potential since - as I found in courting my wife - the fact that you have something to say doesn't mean others will listen. But the potential is truly there. You can put up a Web site that anyone in the world can see, and if it's interesting enough, the world will beat a path to your door. In contrast, the astronomical costs required to build an old media firm - a TV or radio station or a newspaper - mean that relatively few people control those channels of communication. Naturally, those who control old media tend to favor their own viewpoints. The result is that a relatively small group, consisting of mere thousands of people, has been responsible for promulgating ideas and dictating culture to billions. This "media elite" is often out of touch with the rest of the world. As Pat Sajak pointed out in his speech at Hillsdale last year, there's a major disconnect between Hollywood and America. It's not that the people who run old media are bad people, but they live in a cloistered world. The Internet changes two things about the media business: First, it's much less expensive to get into the business. This results in a significantly higher level of competition within the media, and in theory, a much better product. Second, unlike any mass medium before it, the Internet is two-way. The audience can talk back, instantly. When a newspaper runs a story tainted with bias, their email boxes overflow and Web sites spring up overnight to defend alternative viewpoints. The people who run old media have never before had to contend with immediate reaction on such a massive scale. Even after the full effect of the Internet is felt, each of us will likely choose to get our news from a limited set of sources that serve as content filters and editors. Opinion leaders will have broad audiences and entertainers will entertain, but the underlying economics will no longer require mass media to be in the hands of a relative few. Competition and immediate feedback will lead to a higher standard of quality and force those who produce content to confront their audience, often for the first time. Today I still read the online edition of the Wall Street Journal, but I also get my industry news and analysis each day from dozens of other sources on the Internet, a few of which are only staffed by one person. Billions of people connected to the Internet will each have the ability to reach every other human being on the planet. The result will be a much more efficient market for information. With the Internet, ideas have the potential to flow freely to where they are most desired and most useful. The Internet and Civilization The Internet offers much more than simply changing the media. History shows that nearly every great advance in civilization was preceded by an advance in communications technology - from the earliest invention of language to the printing press to the telephone. In the Middle Ages, for instance, books were rare commodities. Monks and scholars spent lifetimes copying texts by hand. Because few could afford to own books, knowledge was available to only a small number of people. In the mid-1400s, Johannes Gutenberg developed the printing press. Suddenly, written works could be copied quickly, accurately and in great quantities. Books were cheaper and easier to come by, and, for the first time ever, the common man had firsthand access to knowledge. An ordinary person could read his own copy of the Bible, for example. Soon he would be able to read it in his own language - German, French or English - rather than in Latin. He could see for himself what the Scriptures said, and no longer had to accept without question an authority's view of his religion. As we know, this new, widespread access to knowledge led to the Reformation and great changes in Western culture. This pattern has been repeated throughout history. When it becomes easier to communicate, civilization advances. Since September 11, 2001, I think most would agree it would be good to witness a further advance of civilization. And indeed, I believe the Internet has a vital role to play in reducing hatred around the world and the terrorism it promotes. Obviously, one ingredient missing between people who are blindly prejudiced against one another is a free exchange of ideas and communication. Other things may be missing as well, such as the concept of religious freedom or even, as in the example of al-Qaeda, basic human decency. Evil exists, and must sometimes be dealt with using force. But even evil people require the support of others for their success. Although the vast majority of people have good intentions, such people can be misled. This is where freer communication offers promise. Consider how dictators like Saddam Hussein are so adamantly opposed to Western television and the Internet. They say they don't want their cultures "corrupted," but their real motive is keeping their populations in the dark. The boom in Internet-enabled communication has already brought the world closer together. It's common these days for us to send emails to people around the globe. Through the Web, people of all nations interact with each other billions of times a day, and in the process, learn of each other's cultures, customs, religions, dreams and daily life. This creates aspects of common reality and affinity among people. It makes it harder for prejudiced people to support the murder of innocents when they have seen their faces and share a common reality - even if that reality is only a love of basketball or of the latest Britney Spears album. And again, I'm not talking about having a beneficial effect on lunatics, but rather on those who might fall under their spell. People come under the sway of tyrants when they lack adequate judgment and experience to see those tyrants for what they are - when they are so much in the dark that even lunatics seem to offer light. More and less-fettered communication is always a force for good. The Internet promises to make geography - in the sense of distance between people - less relevant. This is vital in those places still isolated from the outside world today. Even though Internet access is often forbidden, it is cracking open places like China and the Middle East, exposing their peoples to the ideas and experiences of the rest of humanity. Over the long run, its influence cannot help but extend civilization and promote the conditions of peace. Good Education and Bad As you can probably tell by now, I'm very passionate about communication. I also love to start companies. I've been doing it since I was about 10 years old, when I launched a window washing service in my family's apartment building. Given these two passions, it's no wonder that I eventually found a way to start an Internet company. Like many great businesses, EarthLink was born out of frustration. I was sitting at home late one night in 1993, staring at my computer screen. After about 80 hours of punching buttons, twisting knobs, loading software and conjuring voodoo spirits, I finally managed to get myself connected to the Internet for the first time. There it was. Even in its primitive state back then - the Web hadn't even been invented yet - I recognized that I was looking at a way to reach anyone, anywhere in the world, practically for free. I saw immediately that the Internet would become a channel making all human knowledge available to anyone, anytime, anywhere. I knew that the Internet was going to become the next mass medium. But first, it had to get a lot easier. So I took all my frustration and turned it into a company with the simple mission of making it possible for anyone to connect to the Internet and use it to its full potential. We signed up our first EarthLink customer on July 1, 1994. Back then, it was just me and a couple of employees in a little 600-square-foot office. Today it is a Fortune 1000 company. Along the way, as an entrepreneur struggling to build a fast-growing business, I've seen the fruits of our current education system firsthand, and it's deeply troubling. For example, it's nearly impossible these days to find executives who know how to write. This vital skill appears to be vanishing quickly. I'm not just talking about high school graduates, but people with degrees from prestigious Ivy League schools. The lack of this basic ability turns day-to-day business into a trudge through the swamp. Either it takes forever for someone to construct a letter, or they write something incomprehensible, or - even worse - they write something misleading. What's the point of an email if you have to pick up the phone and call a person to find out what he is trying to say? There is an even more fundamental skill than writing - thinking. When it comes to finding employees who know how to think rationally and evaluate information for themselves, combing through a crop of recent high school or even college graduates is like looking for a needle in a haystack. These people are so hard to find that when you get them, you make sure you never let them go. Entrepreneurs recognize these people as the pillars that companies are built on. The question is: why do we have so few of them? When I look to the current education system, I don't see this problem being resolved. Instead, I see what passes for solutions. Take, for example, the school-enforced drugging of children who won't sit still in class. Millions of school children in this country are now being prescribed Ritalin, a drug which shares many of the pharmacological effects of amphetamines, and which, along with amphetamines, meth-amphetamines, cocaine, opium and methadone, is classified by the DEA as a drug with a high potential for abuse. We are raising a generation on the premise that brain chemistry is the root cause of our education failures. Even worse, it is the brightest kids with the highest innate ability that are most likely to be labeled as "problematic" because they get bored or don't like to sit still. I probably would have been labeled that way myself. I don't believe that the children of this country have a Ritalin deficiency. I have learned firsthand what kind of education makes great employees and leaders. It is one that first gives individuals the basic tools to learn, and then the ability to analyze information - to accept what they think right and reject what they don't. It is an education that makes them able to reason, to expand their knowledge on their own, and finally, to communicate. This kind of education is hard to find these days, but there are still a few schools that are guided by this philosophy. Hillsdale College is one of them. The high school I attended in Oregon, the Delphian School, is another. One of the courses at Delphian requires students to look through current magazines and newspapers and find inconsistencies - stories that draw on inappropriate sources, stories with incomplete or contrary facts, and so forth. This is an enlightening process for a fourteen-year-old. Suddenly you realize that your reasoning, your logic, your ability to observe, are as important to your life as those of any authority's. Since doing that exercise all those years ago, I've never read a newspaper, magazine, or book or watched debates or news on TV blindly. From then on, I felt more in control of the sources of information I chose to use. I left the Delphian School understanding the value of individual thought and action. That is, perhaps, the biggest difference between an education that preserves a student's ability to reason and act based on his or her own understanding and observations, and an education aimed more at "socializing" or inculcating. The former helps create people who understand that they are responsible for themselves, their families and their country, and who are capable of taking responsibility. They are not the victims of circumstance or involuntary followers of the status quo. They are the entrepreneurs and leaders that create industries and shape our culture. Education and the Internet This brings us back to the Internet, its role in our civilization and its reliance on education. Like any other major technological advance, the Internet must be met with an increased level of responsibility. Whether it achieves its potential depends on who uses it and how. Representing, as it does, the first two-way global forum for communication, the Internet's value is determined by the quality of the ideas that flow over it. Thought and reason take on new meaning in a frictionless medium where ideas cross thousands of miles instantaneously. It is especially vital, then, that education return to its roots - that thought and reason, once again, become the vital core of learning. The Internet holds incredible power. Applied well, it promises to move ideas where they can best be used, allow understanding and collaboration on a global scale, and increase the standard of living worldwide. It stands to become the vehicle of a new kind of economy - an "idea-economy" - where ideas and the ability to think clearly are all that matter. Creating thinking people is now the challenge and the mandate for education. If each year sees even a few more men and women enter the world as thinking, capable, responsible individuals, we will have the basis for a country and a world that can truly benefit from the Internet and the free flow of ideas it makes possible. Ideas are the fuel of the next hundred years of human endeavor. It's up to schools like Hillsdale to light the way. Now more than ever, ideas have consequences. ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From fork_list at hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 22:54:55 2003 From: fork_list at hotmail.com (Mr. FoRK) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Shake the dieases References: Message-ID: > So what would folks recommend for a start at working off the ring rust? Depends on what kind of apps or systems you want to write. For Web apps, you can pick client (DHTML, CSS, JavaScript) or server (HTTP, PHP/JSP/servlets/etc). For large scale business apps, you can pick documents (XML, XSD) or databases (SQL, MySQL, BerkleyDB, Oracle) or messaging (JMS, XML, EDI, etc). For the real-soon-now Pedantic Web, you can pick markup languages (RDF, RDDL, OWL, etc). For short term contracting, you can pick up buzzword compliance (SOAP, WSDL, UDDI, .NET, etc) From fork_list at hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 22:56:43 2003 From: fork_list at hotmail.com (Mr. FoRK) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Bootcamp for Beberg References: <3EDA184A.8070407@permafrost.net> <3EDA2742.4C719CD5@endeavors.com> <3EDB86F2.6080909@endeavors.com> Message-ID: > > > > Cool... how does 'real time enterprise' differ from 'Straight Through > > Processing' (& JIT)? > > JIT = IBM/HP = On Demand Computing = Infrastructure = > Hardware + Software > STP = Oracle/Peoplesoft/Siebel/SAP/Microsoft = Operations = > PRM/(e)CRM + Process > Real Time Enterprise = ? = Events = Infrastructure + Operations > + Applications + Events > Wasn't that last one supposed to be KnowNow? They just need apps & ops... From signa at birch.net Mon Jun 2 21:45:40 2003 From: signa at birch.net (Steve Nordquist) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Taking an Axe to the Regulatory State: DeLay's CEI Annual Dinner Speech In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030603064531.44B4815DC44A@xent.com> On Sunday 01 June 2003 08:44 pm, you struggled free to say: ^^ republicans: damn, he's smart. it's so simple: demcrats are trouble makers ^^ /spenders /taxers /roots of all evil. all our problems stem from their ^^ meddlesome social engineering. (mantra: i am a patriot, i am a patriot, i am ^^ a patriot.) Well, you can go some time adapting discourse from DUNE, and then it gets stale. ^^ democrats: dweeby AND divisive - no wonder he's their spokesperson. every ^^ time we bring up enron we get the same old same old: "democrats wnat to ^^ legislate behavior." what idiot STILL believes republicans are the party of ^^ accountability? (and who wrote his speech - limbaugh?) I think they're happy working with just the extent and depth of some behaviors. ^^ libertarians: asshole. we've been saying this all along, but we mean it ^^ when we say it. we think bush is a royalist. and talk about MEDDLESOME! ^^ where did my civil liberties go? (i wonder - can montana and idaho secede . ^^ . .?) Yes, but what other 7 states would go off with them, and would cheap imported DDR from Idaho ruin us? Defense for the region is obvious; the Greater Vancouver phone book could stop any soldier and her informatic devices. ...or you can just run the CEI@home client. Oh.. Haven't seen a citation otherwise lately. From gbolcer at endeavors.com Tue Jun 3 09:25:24 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Bootcamp for Beberg References: <3EDA184A.8070407@permafrost.net> <3EDA2742.4C719CD5@endeavors.com> Message-ID: <3EDCBDE4.5094B318@endeavors.com> "Mr. FoRK" wrote: PRM/(e)CRM + Process > > Real Time Enterprise = ? = Events = Infrastructure + Operations > > + Applications + Events > > > Wasn't that last one supposed to be KnowNow? They just need apps & ops... Sure, but I think BEA and Sun fancy themselves.... I think this is a Rohit original, but I don't remember the exact wording, "Any successful technology will eventually be reinvented at the next network level." Greg From gbolcer at endeavors.com Tue Jun 3 09:35:10 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Shake the dieases References: Message-ID: <3EDCC02E.577F400A@endeavors.com> Learn Cobol. According to Gartner, it's the fastest growing demand for skills in the next 5 years--cobol programmers that know the Web. If I *ever* get any free time, I think this would be a fun project. https://sourceforge.net/projects/libwww-cobol/ Greg "Mr. FoRK" wrote: > > > So what would folks recommend for a start at working off the ring rust? > > Depends on what kind of apps or systems you want to write. > For Web apps, you can pick client (DHTML, CSS, JavaScript) or server (HTTP, > PHP/JSP/servlets/etc). > For large scale business apps, you can pick documents (XML, XSD) or > databases (SQL, MySQL, BerkleyDB, Oracle) or messaging (JMS, XML, EDI, etc). > For the real-soon-now Pedantic Web, you can pick markup languages (RDF, > RDDL, OWL, etc). > For short term contracting, you can pick up buzzword compliance (SOAP, WSDL, > UDDI, .NET, etc) From gbolcer at endeavors.com Tue Jun 3 09:36:54 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Shake the dieases References: Message-ID: <3EDCC096.BD45B89B@endeavors.com> "Mr. FoRK" wrote: > > > So what would folks recommend for a start at working off the ring rust? > > Depends on what kind of apps or systems you want to write. > For Web apps, you can pick client (DHTML, CSS, JavaScript) or server (HTTP, > PHP/JSP/servlets/etc). > For large scale business apps, you can pick documents (XML, XSD) or > databases (SQL, MySQL, BerkleyDB, Oracle) or messaging (JMS, XML, EDI, etc). > For the real-soon-now Pedantic Web, you can pick markup languages (RDF, > RDDL, OWL, etc). > For short term contracting, you can pick up buzzword compliance (SOAP, WSDL, > UDDI, .NET, etc) From lgonze at panix.com Tue Jun 3 12:32:43 2003 From: lgonze at panix.com (Lucas Gonze) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Shake the dieases In-Reply-To: <3EDCC02E.577F400A@endeavors.com> Message-ID: Holy smoke, Bolcer's right. Couldn't it be E? OXDGD (Obscure XML Dialect Generation Dialect)? Anything but Cobol, please, please, just not Cobol. - Lucas On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote: > Learn Cobol. According to Gartner, it's the fastest > growing demand for skills in the next 5 years--cobol > programmers that know the Web. > > If I *ever* get any free time, I think this > would be a fun project. > > https://sourceforge.net/projects/libwww-cobol/ > > Greg > > "Mr. FoRK" wrote: > > > > > So what would folks recommend for a start at working off the ring rust? > > > > Depends on what kind of apps or systems you want to write. > > For Web apps, you can pick client (DHTML, CSS, JavaScript) or server (HTTP, > > PHP/JSP/servlets/etc). > > For large scale business apps, you can pick documents (XML, XSD) or > > databases (SQL, MySQL, BerkleyDB, Oracle) or messaging (JMS, XML, EDI, etc). > > For the real-soon-now Pedantic Web, you can pick markup languages (RDF, > > RDDL, OWL, etc). > > For short term contracting, you can pick up buzzword compliance (SOAP, WSDL, > > UDDI, .NET, etc) > From lgonze at panix.com Tue Jun 3 12:41:42 2003 From: lgonze at panix.com (Lucas Gonze) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Shake the dieases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: New project: OXDGD Inputs: Acronym beginning with X Outputs: Angle brackets, long identifiers, a Microsoft API to make the damn thing semi-usable, a Winer rant that he invented it and everybody else broke it. On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Lucas Gonze wrote: > > Holy smoke, Bolcer's right. Couldn't it be E? OXDGD (Obscure XML Dialect > Generation Dialect)? Anything but Cobol, please, please, just not Cobol. > > - Lucas > > On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote: > > > Learn Cobol. According to Gartner, it's the fastest > > growing demand for skills in the next 5 years--cobol > > programmers that know the Web. > > > > If I *ever* get any free time, I think this > > would be a fun project. > > > > https://sourceforge.net/projects/libwww-cobol/ > > > > Greg > > > > "Mr. FoRK" wrote: > > > > > > > So what would folks recommend for a start at working off the ring rust? > > > > > > Depends on what kind of apps or systems you want to write. > > > For Web apps, you can pick client (DHTML, CSS, JavaScript) or server (HTTP, > > > PHP/JSP/servlets/etc). > > > For large scale business apps, you can pick documents (XML, XSD) or > > > databases (SQL, MySQL, BerkleyDB, Oracle) or messaging (JMS, XML, EDI, etc). > > > For the real-soon-now Pedantic Web, you can pick markup languages (RDF, > > > RDDL, OWL, etc). > > > For short term contracting, you can pick up buzzword compliance (SOAP, WSDL, > > > UDDI, .NET, etc) > > > From jbone at deepfile.com Tue Jun 3 12:46:46 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) In-Reply-To: <005101c32959$38635d10$f200000a@avalon> Message-ID: > Perhaps interestingly, Java-to-C++ generates roughly a 1:1 LoC > conversion > for the types of systems I generally write, whereas Python-to-C++ > seems to > have about a 1:4 LoC conversion. Interesting. We tend to see at least a 1:5 LoC conversion ratio with Python->C, and often a 1:10 ratio. Not entirely a fair comparison, though, because in the latter case we've often made serious use of certain Python idioms that don't map well to C. I tend to find that hairy domain logic is less "compressible" than generic framework / architectural code --- we see a lower conversion ratio between Python and C in domain-specific stuff. I guess that makes sense from an information-theoretic perspective. ;-) But it's also surprising how often stuff that appears to be domain-specific can be abstracted in a rather generic fashion, lending itself to powerful algorithms expressed very compactly. (In this, it's like many kinds of "operate over large values" languages --- Lisp, Scheme, and particularly APL come to mind. In all these cases, recasting the problem in the native abstractions leads to extremely compact programs. Though Python's more writeable / readable than any of these, IMHO.) For example: Python makes problems that can be recast as iteration / mapping / graph traversal trivial. So in our application, we have all these domain objects: things like metadata records for files, directories, volumes, etc. Rather than do what most object-relational mappings do, we actually modeled the *tables* directly in Python; e.g., we have a Volumes class rather than a Volume class. The benefit here is that all such collections of domain objects can share a generic interface (fetch, store, filter, delete, etc.) and support iteration directly, so we can write small pieces of code that operate over large values (sets of values) all at once. It's a little strange if you're used to the typical ORM style, but it makes the code a LOT smaller. Faster, too, by avoiding one layer of object instantiation per thing of interest. In general, we tend to use a lot of the higher-level constructs in Python: first-class functions / lambdas, generators, list comprehensions, and the functional programming things (map, filter, apply, etc.) Guido's recently gone on record saying he regrets introducing some of these concepts to Python, but IMHO w/o them Python's just a "looser" Java. I see people coming from Java write Python code that is, for all intents and purposes, Java. They even introduce things like interfaces and pervasive type-checking constructs. Ugh. Don't get me wrong, that stuff's useful on occasion --- but far less frequently than folks from strongly-typed OO languages tend to thing, IMHO. NB: one annoying bit is that many of the functional things in Python don't work (yet) w/ generators. For example, the map(fn, lst) builtin does not work over generators, so you end up having to do something like: # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------- # Python map(fn, lst) builtin doesn't work w/ generators, so... # ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------- def Map(fn, gen): for item in gen: fn(item) Another thing that I find is that I write a lot less error-handling code in Python. I can get away w/ being a lot sloppier. There's this virtuous cycle based on the proportionality of LoC and bugs; the more LoC it takes to implement some feature, the more bugs that feature can potentially contain. (And this goes way up when algorithms cannot be expressed in a single screenful of text, IIRC in a Pike et. al. study back at Bell Labs they found that almost all bugs occurred in functions >25 LoC.) Since Python makes expression of many things very compact, it's relatively easy to (informally) verify correct operation --- and then you don't need all that error handling code! (If your code is library code called by 3rd parties, of course, this is not so much the case.) OTOH, ironically, putting in lots of static type checking, error (particularly exception) handling, etc. (a) makes the code bigger and hence gives more surface area for bugs to breed, and (b) makes the code more brittle and the end-user experience more fragile. I've taken to wrapping up iffy code in naked exception handlers and failing "silently but gracefully" as a default rather than trying to deal w/ things. After all, error handling is ultimately for the user's benefit, not the programmer's. Just some ramblings. I've fallen in love with Python over the years. It's the most productive programming language I've ever used. I can actually stomach exploratory hacking with Python again --- I hadn't felt that way about a language since, oh, Scheme. I'll go on record as saying *I was wrong about Python* --- years ago on this very list I proclaimed that I could never take seriously any language in which white space had semantic value. ;-) Well, I was wrong. Shortly after that, I started using Python and haven't looked back. Between it, the shell, and ANSI C I just don't run into any problems that require (or even benefit from) any other languages in the toolkit. (Well, okay, I lie --- I use Mathematica from time to time. But you get my point.) $0.02, jb From jbone at deepfile.com Tue Jun 3 13:32:41 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: On the Wings of Atoms Message-ID: <609F8C76-95E9-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> There IS plenty of room at the bottom. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/06/030603083525.htm ---- Observing The 'Wings" Of Atoms: Study Indicates It Is Possible To See Electrons' Orbital Paths Around Atoms By crunching numbers on a supercomputer for six months, University of Utah researchers showed it is possible for an atomic force microscope to make images of the wing-shaped paths of minuscule electrons as they orbit atoms. The new study -- led by Feng Liu, a professor of materials science and engineering -- supports a controversial 2000 study by German physicist Franz Giessibl, who claimed he was able to use an atomic force microscope to detect subatomic structures in silicon atoms. An atom is made of a core or nucleus surrounded by rapidly orbiting electrons. Depending on an atom's size, the electrons' orbital paths -- called atomic orbitals -- have different geometries, often shaped like figure-eights so they point out in different directions like atomic "wings." Liu says his extensive computations at the University of Utah's Center for High Performance Computing "demonstrated the feasibility of seeing not only the atom but also the atomic orbitals when imaging the [silicon] surface with atomic force microscopy." The study has been accepted for publication in the journal Physical Review Letters. Liu conducted the study with graduate student Minghuang Huang and with Martin Cuma, a computational chemist at the Center for High Performance Computing. The researchers conclude it is feasible to "see" the orbitals by sensing the forces created by the electrons as they whip around an atom. The supercomputer calculations showed that to detect an atom's orbitals, the atomic force microscope's tip needs to be within 2 to 3 angstroms of the atoms being scanned -- less than the diameter of an atom. At that distance, the microscope tip becomes sensitive to forces exerted by wing-like orbitals extending at angles from the silicon atom being scanned. (An angstrom is one 10-billionth of a meter, or one-tenth of a nanometer. An atom is about 3 angstroms wide. A piece of paper is about 1 million angstroms thick.) [more] From jamesr at best.com Tue Jun 3 12:03:06 2003 From: jamesr at best.com (James Rogers) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003001c329fa$643f03c0$f200000a@avalon> Jeff Bone wrote: > Interesting. We tend to see at least a 1:5 LoC conversion > ratio with > Python->C, and often a 1:10 ratio. Not entirely a fair comparison, > though, because in the latter case we've often made serious use of > certain Python idioms that don't map well to C. The 1:4 conversion is a rough average. Over the years I have evolved a clean but very efficient and compact C-code style that typically generates fewer LoCs than many people get with the language. As long as -Wall doesn't squawk and its consistent/clean, its all good. I get roughly this 1:4 conversion when actually working on complex tree/graph data structures. The problem I have with Java in terms of conversion efficiency is that the LoCs I save with the data structure libs and memory management I lose again because of its rigid verbosity compared to C. In practice, certain efficient C expressions have a rather circuitous equivalent in Java. At the end of the day, it is usually a wash. > In general, we tend to use a lot of the higher-level constructs in > Python: first-class functions / lambdas, generators, list > comprehensions, and the functional programming things (map, filter, > apply, etc.) Guido's recently gone on record saying he regrets > introducing some of these concepts to Python, but IMHO w/o them > Python's just a "looser" Java. I don't see the problem; we don't really need another Java-type programming language, and Python fills its niche very well. The relatively clean mix of functional, OO, and procedural in Python is what makes it useful to me. No programming paradigm fits every problem and the ability to switch between them at a fine-grained level is the real power of Python IMO. > Between it, the shell, and ANSI C I just don't run into any problems that > require (or even benefit from) any other languages in the toolkit. I'm finding this to be true as well. Together these make just about the most efficient and effective software toolkit I've come across. There aren't too many problems that can't be solved both elegantly and efficiently with this mix. An important component of this is the fact that the application line between these different tools can be pretty blurry and they play together very well. Cheers, -James Rogers jamesr@best.com From gbolcer at endeavors.com Tue Jun 3 12:05:07 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:58 2003 Subject: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) References: Message-ID: <3EDCE353.7040305@endeavors.com> With modern day optimizers, LOC is only good for measuring Halstead or McCabe. Greg Jeff Bone wrote: > I tend to find that hairy domain logic is less "compressible" than > generic framework / architectural code --- we see a lower conversion > ratio between Python and C in domain-specific stuff. I guess that > makes sense from an information-theoretic perspective. -- Gregory Alan Bolcer, CTO | work: +1.949.833.2800 gbolcer at endeavors.com | http://endeavors.com Endeavors Technology, Inc.| cell: +1.714.928.5476 From lrivers at mac.com Tue Jun 3 14:08:16 2003 From: lrivers at mac.com (Lorin Rivers) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <59652014-95EE-11D7-8870-0003936C4FEA@mac.com> On Tuesday, June 3, 2003, at 11:46 AM, Jeff Bone wrote: > In general, we tend to use a lot of the higher-level constructs in > Python: first-class functions / lambdas, generators, list > comprehensions, and the functional programming things (map, filter, > apply, etc.) Guido's recently gone on record saying he regrets > introducing some of these concepts to Python, but IMHO w/o them > Python's just a "looser" Java. I see people coming from Java write > Python code that is, for all intents and purposes, Java. They even > introduce things like interfaces and pervasive type-checking > constructs. Ugh. Don't get me wrong, that stuff's useful on occasion > --- but far less frequently than folks from strongly-typed OO > languages tend to thing, IMHO. The only languages I have much experience with are REALbasic (similar to VB, but OO from the ground up) -- strongly, operator overloading , PHP -- not strongly typed, no operator overloading, AppleScript -- not strongly typed, read-only programming language. What's the source of your dislike for typing? Where does Python fit in? Is there a good Mac IDE for Python? -- "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." -- Hermann Goering in his cell on the evening of 18 April 1946 From deafbox at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 19:16:55 2003 From: deafbox at hotmail.com (Russell Turpin) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) Message-ID: Jeff Bone: >Interesting. We tend to see at least a 1:5 LoC conversion ratio with >Python->C, and often a 1:10 ratio. .. If you're doing this translation to implement a Python module, the conventions for doing that likely affect the conversion ratio. And if you're not doing this translation to make a Python module .. then why not? ;-) _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From jbone at deepfile.com Tue Jun 3 14:18:19 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) In-Reply-To: <003001c329fa$643f03c0$f200000a@avalon> Message-ID: On Tuesday, Jun 3, 2003, at 13:03 US/Central, James Rogers wrote: > The 1:4 conversion is a rough average. Over the years I have evolved a > clean but very efficient and compact C-code style that typically > generates > fewer LoCs than many people get with the language. As long as -Wall > doesn't > squawk and its consistent/clean, its all good. I get roughly this 1:4 > conversion when actually working on complex tree/graph data structures. That makes more sense. If the stuff you're working on in C is already close to the kinds of data structures and algorithms you're typically using in Python, then the idiomatic compression is going to be less. >> In general, we tend to use a lot of the higher-level constructs in >> Python: first-class functions / lambdas, generators, list >> comprehensions, and the functional programming things (map, filter, >> apply, etc.) Guido's recently gone on record saying he regrets >> introducing some of these concepts to Python, but IMHO w/o them >> Python's just a "looser" Java. > > I don't see the problem; we don't really need another Java-type > programming > language, and Python fills its niche very well. The relatively clean > mix of > functional, OO, and procedural in Python is what makes it useful to > me. No > programming paradigm fits every problem and the ability to switch > between > them at a fine-grained level is the real power of Python IMO. Are we disagreeing? I don't think so... I agree w/ you that we don't need another Java, and it's the things mentioned that make Python distinct from Java. My concern is that Guido (per some recent PyCon and list ramblings) doesn't seem to recognize the value in some of these things. jb From jamesr at best.com Tue Jun 3 12:21:51 2003 From: jamesr at best.com (James Rogers) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003501c329fd$00dffd90$f200000a@avalon> Jeff Bone [mailto:jbone@deepfile.com] wrote: > > Are we disagreeing? I don't think so... I was disagreeing with Guido's assessment of the merits, not with you. It seems that in this case we are in almost perfect agreement. -James Rogers jamesr@best.com From deafbox at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 19:26:31 2003 From: deafbox at hotmail.com (Russell Turpin) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) Message-ID: Lorin Rivers: >What's the source of your dislike for typing? Where does Python fit in? Actually, objects in Python are strongly typed, and there is full introspection for type discovery. But variables aren't typed except by their binding to an object, and variable assignment simply rebinds a name to an object. This is different from both static variable typing, as in C++, and untyping, as in Basic. In practice, it means that type errors are caught at run-time rather than compile-time. Because the typing is strict, type errors are caught. But once you've done a bit of Python programming, you realize just how much time and friction comes from type declation iin a language like C++. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jbone at deepfile.com Tue Jun 3 14:30:32 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) In-Reply-To: <59652014-95EE-11D7-8870-0003936C4FEA@mac.com> Message-ID: <75E2DB55-95F1-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> On Tuesday, Jun 3, 2003, at 13:08 US/Central, Lorin Rivers wrote: > What's the source of your dislike for typing? Actually, I don't dislike strong typing per se. There are some languages (usually based on the typed lambda calculus, e.g. Haskell) that are very strongly typed, that I happen to like quite a lot and that are quite expressive. The problem is strong typing of the C++ lineage, where types are both rigidly enforced and yet not particularly useful. In those cases, the compiler feels more like a dominatrix than a tool, and code balloons as you try to find a way to bend the type system to your will... (Or rather, bend your will to fit the type system.) > Where does Python fit in? Is there a good Mac IDE for Python? It's called Terminal.app. ;-) jb From gbolcer at endeavors.com Tue Jun 3 12:27:39 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) [Haiku] References: Message-ID: <3EDCE89B.9070907@endeavors.com> Python bootstrappin' pippy.sourceforge.net in my Airforce 1's. Greg It's a Midwest thang, y'all - and they ain't got a clue (Ain't got a clue) why my Cutlass blue and I got them thangs on that motherfucker too It's a Midwest Swang, y'all - and they ain't gotta trip (Ain't gotta trip) while we swing and dip (Ay, ay, ay, ay, ay) Cuz we do big thangs on the motherfuckin' hip What you think we live on a farm? Nigga be for real We got Benz's Rovers' and Jag's, Hummer's and Deville's Got a green S Class, ain't broke the door seal Shit ain't been the same since I signed Fo' Reel This shit got ill, when I hit 4 mill Five and countin', dirty six at will Did seven on the slide, 8 worldwide I'll be on my third Bentley by the time I'm at 9 I hear 'em cryin, "You gon' sell out" ya damn right I done sold out before and re-comped the same night Straight hopped the next flight, too *Icey* for sunlight Dunkin without Sprite, yea you heard me dirty I'm from the Show-Me State, show me seven I'll show you eight Karats in one bling, heavily starched jeans Representin St. Louis everytime I breathe In the city I touch down and I bob and weave, ay I sport my beeper on my boots, that's why I be a buzz when I kick Maybe it's on my lips, it's chaos when I spit Quarter man, quarter schoolboy, half Lunatic Quarter rubber, quarter dick, other half in yo' shit Keep a quarter of some sheeeiit, I'm the Pooky of the backyard All colors and all types like a junkyard Hot young boy with hot young ways Cause I connect three blunts and be high for three days You can tell by the way I walk I ain't from 'round hurr (here) Probably couldn't tell cuz I ain't walkin nowhurr (nowhere) I got a old-school Cutlass, with a hole in the urr (air) TV's urrwhurr (everywhere) wood grain to sturr (stare) I don't curr (care), hell naw I ain't cuttin my hurr (hair) To the half in them Airforce 1's, give me two purr (pair) ugh I'm from the Lou' and what I do is a Lou' thang One rapper, two rings and three chains Nothing but some ole country boys that ride V-12 horses Saddle up and put spurs on my Airforce's Back porches made for hide and go seek We got space out hurr, we can ride and chief Ain't gotta worry 'bout nobody approachin' us By the time they catchin' up, we smoked it up And my eyes be red, my lips a lil' dark The Lou is more than the Rams, Cards and lil' Arch My dirty's love to spark, and love to sparkle Love homies *Vokal* coats with matchin' car do's (doors) We racin down Skinker, see how fast our car go Granny be like "Ay-yi-yi" like Ricky Ricardo I know you wanna know why we do what we do You cats ain't got a clue why the Cutlass blue Brand new twenty-two's on new UP's With one, two, three, four, five TV's I'm sittin' on the front porch, writin a hood rhyme Waitin on my connect to deliver that good line Wish I would find, one seed in my weed Sticks and shit, if I do somebody bleed Pull right here, eight pounds of Chinamen Two stay hittin some blunts and Heineken Hidin in the back with the po' po' kicked in my do'do', man they some ho' hooo's They put the gun to my earr, you know the Lord don't fear Nann nigga, nann hoe, let's keep that bullshit clearr They had me face down in the skreet Errbody watchin, thinkin I'ma pull the heat And leave the D-tects with a leak in the skreet And that - pussy ass nigga that set me up my peeps Gon' give it to this nigga like NYPD Beat the K, fuck coke, now I'm back on my granny porch hustlin -- Gregory Alan Bolcer, CTO | work: +1.949.833.2800 gbolcer at endeavors.com | http://endeavors.com Endeavors Technology, Inc.| cell: +1.714.928.5476 From jamesr at best.com Tue Jun 3 12:39:07 2003 From: jamesr at best.com (James Rogers) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003601c329ff$6a766850$f200000a@avalon> Russell Turpin wrote: > > If you're doing this translation to implement > a Python module, the conventions for doing > that likely affect the conversion ratio. > > And if you're not doing this translation to > make a Python module .. then why not? I'm assuming Jeff is using it in the way I do. I'll prototype and proof a complex system in Python, and then "freeze" the code (part or all) in C if it makes sense to. A fair number of the apps I write are resource-intensive and can get a lot more headroom in C, hence why I bother with the conversion. The conversion from Python-to-C is usually pretty simple, especially after you've done it a couple times. I actually find that this is a faster development cycle many times than writing in C/C++ directly for apps that need it, and the number of bugs that creep into the C program tends to be very small in the conversion. My typical code cycle is Python->C/C++->binary, with all of the code design happening in Python. It is only a minor trick to manage the parallel source trees. Cheers, -James Rogers jamesr@best.com From jbone at deepfile.com Tue Jun 3 14:41:27 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tuesday, Jun 3, 2003, at 13:26 US/Central, Russell Turpin wrote: > Lorin Rivers: >> What's the source of your dislike for typing? Where does Python fit >> in? > > Actually, objects in Python are strongly typed, > and there is full introspection for type discovery. > But variables aren't typed except by their > binding to an object, ... > In practice, it means that type errors are > caught at run-time rather than compile-time. Side note: I've always imagined that a system in which typing of variables is treated "progressively" would be of great use. That is, variables would be untyped by default, however static typing could be optionally indicated for any given variable and used during a type analysis phase at runtime to catch errors. The only language that I can think of that does this (off the top of my head) is Rebol. As it turns out, it appears that Python might be moving in this direction, can't put my finger on the appropriate PEP or list posting at the moment. In addition, there was a presentation [1] at PyCon on traits, a (sort of) similar idea though clearly not supported in the bytecode compiler at this time. jb [1] http://www.scipy.org/site_content/traits From jbone at deepfile.com Tue Jun 3 14:44:32 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) In-Reply-To: <003601c329ff$6a766850$f200000a@avalon> Message-ID: <6A6F72B2-95F3-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> On Tuesday, Jun 3, 2003, at 13:39 US/Central, James Rogers wrote: > Russell Turpin wrote: >> >> If you're doing this translation to implement >> a Python module, the conventions for doing >> that likely affect the conversion ratio. >> >> And if you're not doing this translation to >> make a Python module .. then why not? > > I'm assuming Jeff is using it in the way I do. I'll prototype and > proof a > complex system in Python, and then "freeze" the code (part or all) in > C if > it makes sense to. A fair number of the apps I write are > resource-intensive > and can get a lot more headroom in C, hence why I bother with the > conversion. Some of our data collection in Python vs. C: about an 8x speed differential. Yeah, Russell, it'll be an extension module. In general we tend to leave most of the code in Python, since it's more "plastic" that way. Only the most performance intensive things get moved, Python continues to be used for flow control, glue, etc. jb From jbone at deepfile.com Tue Jun 3 14:45:37 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <91183B87-95F3-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> On Tuesday, Jun 3, 2003, at 13:41 US/Central, Jeff Bone wrote: > That is, variables would be untyped by default, however static typing > could be optionally indicated for any given variable and used during a > type analysis phase at runtime to catch errors. Sorry, ^runtime^compile time jb From jbone at deepfile.com Tue Jun 3 15:12:02 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Mac, Python, and the Browser as GUI Toolkit In-Reply-To: <75E2DB55-95F1-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> Message-ID: <41FE6978-95F7-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> One of the downsides to Python on Mac is that the state of Python->Cocoa bindings is a bit behind where it should be. I've looked at a few of these efforts over time but none are quite fully cooked. There are various Python GUI toolkits and bindings: the ubiquitous and now quite antiquated Tk, gtk, wxpython (cross platform), etc. None of these (except gtk on Linux, of course) really have the bang for the buck that you would want --- though wx looks promising --- and if you're building desktop apps for OS X then they really should be Mac apps. Stephen Figgens wrote up a sort of "state of the Mac / Python union" article [1] almost a year and a half ago, and checking back on things every few months I haven't seen much progress since then. :-( Could be wrong, pointers appreciated. That said, almost everything I write these days has either no UI (i.e., it's purely internal componentry, frameworks, etc. for our app or my own experimentation, UNIX-style stdio tools, and so on) or its GUI is the browser and its toolkit ultimately DHTML. My needs are rather simple in regards to the latter, though I've begrudgingly allowed myself to be convinced over time that there's almost nothing at all that you might want to do GUI-wise in a desktop that absolutely cannot be done in DHTML. Granted, DHTML solutions to things like e.g. interactive drawing / graphing are complex, idiosyncratic, and often slow... but it *can* be done. And FWIW, the thing that finally sold me on the versatility of the browser as UI toolkit was KnowNow's IM demo a few years back, where they'd done a realtime, responsive IM client inside a browser using their microserver and plumbing, with events updating the DOM in realtime w/o refresh. Essentially, they'd done some significant part of what Activerse spent years building in Java, in a few days, inside the browser with far less and far simpler code. Wow. :-) jb [1] http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/python/2002/1/31/pythonnews.html From jtauber at jtauber.com Wed Jun 4 04:20:58 2003 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Bootcamp for Beberg In-Reply-To: <3EDCBDE4.5094B318@endeavors.com> References: <3EDA184A.8070407@permafrost.net> <3EDA2742.4C719CD5@endeavors.com> <3EDCBDE4.5094B318@endeavors.com> Message-ID: <20030603192058.372FC342C5@www.fastmail.fm> > I think this is a Rohit original, but I don't > remember the exact wording, "Any successful > technology will eventually be reinvented at the next network > level." With the corollary that a successful technology invented at the top of the stack will cause a new layer to be invented to enable Rohit's Law to continue. James -- James Tauber http://jtauber.com/ From jbone at deepfile.com Tue Jun 3 15:29:21 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: LoC, metrics, complexity, dev mgmt was Re: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) In-Reply-To: <3EDCE353.7040305@endeavors.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, Jun 3, 2003, at 13:05 US/Central, Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote: > With modern day optimizers, LOC is only > good for measuring Halstead or McCabe. But Halstead, McCabe, and similar get close to the heart of the issue. I'll toss out the following conjectures. First, a terminological bit: "function points." A function point is loosely (in this definition) identifiable with a somewhat self-contained piece of functionality: a feature, a requirement, an XP "story." (NB: I'm not a big fan of the heavy, formal function point methodologies, but I find the concept a useful abstraction even if it's never realized. I do use tools like XPlanner to track stories in our current org, and it's a nice, lightweight process.) * the more LoC you currently have, the less function points get done per unit dev time * the more LoC you currently have, the longer it takes to do a fixed number of function points * the more LoC you currently have, the more bugs you will discover * the more LoC you currently have, the more rapidly your LoC will grow * the more LoC you currently have, the less LoC each developer can maintain (to some limit) * the more LoC you currently have, the less function points each developer will do over time IMHO, LoC is a rough but almost always usefully approximate measure lots of things of interest when managing a development process. Another fun one is the geometry of an inheritance hierarchy; IMHO, in most OO languages other than Smalltalk deep, skinny inheritance trees are BAD NEWS, while shallow, bushy ones are a good thing. (Shallow bushy trees usually indicate good factoring, leveling, generalization / abstraction, and loose coupling. Deep skinny ones usually mean very tight coupling, poor abstraction, and OO spaghetti.) Singletons are usually a good thing; factories give me nightmares. ;-) Then there's the whole generic interfaces / large values thing: UNIX, REST, APL, Lisp, etc. Also cf. some of the metrics Guido tossed out about the Python interpreter and libs themselves at PyCon... $0.02, jb From deafbox at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 22:14:11 2003 From: deafbox at hotmail.com (Russell Turpin) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) Message-ID: A short followup. Python has a very distinct philosophy: everything is an object, type misuse is attribute mismatch, and variables are just maps in namespaces (which are also objects). Once one groks the philosophy, it acquires a beauty and gives a productivity similar to only a few other paradigms. I split the difference between James Rogers and Guido. I think the functional aspects of Python fall pretty natural out of the fact that functions must also be treated as objects. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jtauber at jtauber.com Wed Jun 4 07:11:53 2003 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030603221155.DAB4E19101@www.fastmail.fm> On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 21:14:11 +0000, "Russell Turpin" said: > I split the difference between James > Rogers and Guido. I think the functional > aspects of Python fall pretty natural out > of the fact that functions must also be > treated as objects. One source[1] I found of Guido's regrets about certain functional aspects of Python make it clear that it's only *certain* aspects. In particular, he regrets map() and filter() only because he feels list comprehension is a better way of doing the same thing. So he doesn't regret functional aspects overall. He also regrets lambda but that largely seems to be certain specifics of lambda. (I personally have always wanted a progn to go with lambda). James [1] http://www.python.org/doc/essays/ppt/regrets/PythonRegrets.pdf -- James Tauber http://jtauber.com/ From beberg at mithral.com Tue Jun 3 19:30:58 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Bootcamp for Beberg In-Reply-To: <20030603192058.372FC342C5@www.fastmail.fm> Message-ID: <6DBFBD15-961B-11D7-8FBC-003065DAE704@mithral.com> On Tuesday, June 3, 2003, at 02:20 PM, James Tauber wrote: >> I think this is a Rohit original, but I don't >> remember the exact wording, "Any successful >> technology will eventually be reinvented at the next network >> level." > > With the corollary that a successful technology invented at the top of > the stack will cause a new layer to be invented to enable Rohit's Law > to > continue. Well I'm doing layer 2/2.5 over layer 7++, but so is everyone else. But only because everything below layer 7 is completely inaccessible due to firewalls and NAT and TCP-only, so we really have no choice. However, if they hadn't done this, we'd have nothing left to do, things were SOOOOOOOO easy to do back in those days. Hacking is just as easy of course, but programming is a royal pain. And no, IPv6 doesn't help the situation at all. - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From beberg at mithral.com Tue Jun 3 22:36:50 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Rogue AOL Subsidiary Leader to Resign Message-ID: <65322202-9635-11D7-8E97-003065DAE704@mithral.com> Hahahahahhaha Awwww, poor little programmer can't release his crime toolkit so he's gonna take his millions of dollars and run home to mommy. I really hope this is the last we ever hear of this guy going anywhere near a TCP stack. But sadly I doubt it :( - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ ------------- Rogue AOL Subsidiary Leader to Resign Tue Jun 3, 2:41 PM ET By MATTHEW FORDAHL, AP Technology Writer SAN JOSE, Calif. - A young programmer whose software startup, Nullsoft, was gobbled up by America Online ? and then caused numerous headaches for its corporate parent ? plans to resign after his latest piece of rebel code was pulled from the Internet. Equip your inner Spielberg with geek-speak and gear to make PC movie magic easy -- only at Tech Tuesday. Justin Frankel, 24, announced his intentions late Monday, less than a week after a file-sharing program called Waste was posted and then pulled from the Nullsoft Web site. "The company controls the most effective means of self-expression I have," he said in his Web log. "This is unacceptable to me as an individual, therefore I must leav (sic). I don't know when it will be, but I'm not going to last much longer." Attempts to reach Frankel by telephone were not successful. An AOL spokeswoman declined to comment. AOL paid $86 million for Nullsoft in 1999. At the time, the San Francisco company was best known for creating a popular music player called Winamp. Despite the new corporate ownership, Nullsoft's team of programmers managed to maintain a freestyle hacker culture. In March 2000, Nullsoft briefly posted a decentralized file-sharing program called Gnutella (news - web sites) before it was axed by AOL. But the genie had been set free, and other developers refined the code to create post-Napster (news - web sites) file-sharing programs. Nullsoft's latest creation was a file-sharing program that allowed users to set up secure networks of no more than 50 people. Within hours of its posting, Waste was deleted. In its place was a notice that said the program had been posted without Nullsoft's permission. "If you downloaded or otherwise obtained a copy of the software, you acquired no lawful rights to the software and must destroy any and all copies of the software, including by deleting it from your computer," the statement said. "Any license that you may believe you acquired with the software is void, revoked and terminated." Frankel, who is called "Our Benevolent Dictator" on the Nullsoft site, founded the company in 1998 after dropping out of the University of Utah. From fork_list at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 22:27:51 2003 From: fork_list at hotmail.com (Mr. FoRK) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) References: Message-ID: > So in our application, we have all these domain > objects: things like metadata records for files, directories, volumes, > etc. Rather than do what most object-relational mappings do, we > actually modeled the *tables* directly in Python; e.g., we have a > Volumes class rather than a Volume class. Very good point - I've learned that designing with collections in mind is a very good starting point. > years ago on this very list I > proclaimed that I could never take seriously any language in which > white space had semantic value. ;-) Hmm... that's my recent attitude... I wonder if I should look into learning yet another language... From gojomo at usa.net Wed Jun 4 01:58:16 2003 From: gojomo at usa.net (Gordon Mohr) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Rogue AOL Subsidiary Leader to Resign References: <65322202-9635-11D7-8E97-003065DAE704@mithral.com> Message-ID: <00c801c32a6f$253606e0$0a0a000a@golden> Adam Beberg writes: > I really hope this is the last we ever hear of this guy going anywhere > near a TCP stack. But sadly I doubt it :( Yeah, it's just awful when someone like Frankel shares their half-baked ideas with the world, contributing to a cycle of imitation and improvement that eventually touches millions of happy users. We'd be much better off if he'd just brood in the corner, mumbling vague promises about his grandiose but secret ideas, bitter about how the damn world won't give him his due. - Gordon From beberg at mithral.com Wed Jun 4 04:30:46 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Rogue AOL Subsidiary Leader to Resign In-Reply-To: <00c801c32a6f$253606e0$0a0a000a@golden> Message-ID: On Wednesday, June 4, 2003, at 02:58 AM, Gordon Mohr wrote: > Yeah, it's just awful when someone like Frankel shares their > half-baked ideas with the world, contributing to a cycle of > imitation and improvement that eventually touches millions of > happy users. Dude, are you on crack? Yes, you definitely are. Gnutella's ass-backwards protocol resulted in thousands of clogged networks, many annoyed sysadmins, and less real work getting done. Not to mention the permanent things like further tightening of firewalls, packet shaping, and ever more blocked ports - which we'll be dealing with forever. It's not like he invented P2P, he just screwed it up far worse then anyone else did. Then you have millions of stolen songs and shafted artists. But I'm absolutely sure he thinks he did nothing wrong - his jobs have all been 100% dependent on copyright laws like mine I suppose. Frankel is a horrible coder and a thief. Nothing more. How he managed to avoid years in jail just shows how hopeless our legal system is. So explain exactly how he's a good guy again? - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From khare at alumni.caltech.edu Wed Jun 4 05:43:26 2003 From: khare at alumni.caltech.edu (khare@alumni.caltech.edu) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: NYTimes.com Article: No Bunker Found Under Bomb Site Message-ID: <20030604084326.756A8848E@web39t.prvt.nytimes.com> This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by khare@alumni.caltech.edu. My nomination for the most interesting footnote of the entire war... so far. RK khare@alumni.caltech.edu /-------------------- advertisement -----------------------\ Explore more of Starbucks at Starbucks.com. http://www.starbucks.com/default.asp?ci=1015 \----------------------------------------------------------/ No Bunker Found Under Bomb Site May 29, 2003 By REUTERS WASHINGTON, May 28 (Reuters) - There was no bunker under the Baghdad compound the United States bombed on the opening night of the Iraq war in an effort to kill Saddam Hussein, CBS News reported tonight. The network quoted an Army officer, Col. Tim Madere, who is in charge of inspecting sites in Baghdad, as saying there was no trace of a bunker or bodies at the site. "When we came out here, the primary thing they were looking for was an underground facility, or bodies, forensics, and basically, what they saw was giant holes created," he said. "No underground facilities, no bodies." CBS News said the C.I.A. searched the area once and the colonel searched it twice. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/29/international/worldspecial/29BUNK.html?ex=1055716206&ei=1&en=3107165dc0d6e37e --------------------------------- Get Home Delivery of The New York Times Newspaper. Imagine reading The New York Times any time & anywhere you like! Leisurely catch up on events & expand your horizons. Enjoy now for 50% off Home Delivery! Click here: http://www.nytimes.com/ads/nytcirc/index.html HOW TO ADVERTISE --------------------------------- For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help@nytimes.com. Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company From udhay at pobox.com Wed Jun 4 15:55:57 2003 From: udhay at pobox.com (Udhay Shankar N) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Perpetual Motion Machine Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030604145515.00acdc50@frodo.hserus.net> Anybody know more about this? Udhay http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/jun/04newton.htm Indian scholar challenges Newton's law June 04, 2003 12:53 IST An Indian technologist in Australia has challenged Newton's First Law of Motion and called for a revision of the classical theory in the light of modern technology. According to Newton's First Law of Motion an object at rest tends to stay at rest and an object in motion tends to stay in motion, unless acted upon by an external force. Arindam Banerjee, an alumnus of the Indian Institute of Technology-Kharagpur, argued in his recent book, To The Stars!, that contrary to Newton's theory an object can actually be moved without application of any external force. "Central to my theory is the proposal that our understanding of Newton's First Law of Motion should be revised," the 47-year-old research technologist, who works for Telstra in Melbourne, told PTI. Based on his unconventional theory, Banerjee has described in a technical paper, a design for a 'perpetual motion machine,' which can generate energy without burning any kind of fossil fuel or using any radioactive process. Called the Internal Force Engine, Banerjee claims it would never run out of power because it is 'self charging' without the need for any external source of energy. "It is a machine driven by energy internal to the body and can achieve unlimited kinetic energy within a short span of time, using much less energy obtained from external sources like a battery," he said. The balance energy generated thus is free and could be produced indefinitely if a feedback loop is created in the system, Banerjee contended. The technologist has created an electro-magnetically propelled Internal Force Moved Body, which demonstrates that objects can be made to move from rest without friction, without expelling mass at high speed (as in rockets) or without any externally applied force, thus violating Newton's First Law of Motion. Through a series of complex cycles involving a hydraulic system that channelises oppositely directed kinetic energies, Banerjee's IFMB produces ever increasing velocity with each cycle with 'no upper limit' to the velocity that it can reach. Though his theory is based on the assumption that our present understanding of the Law of Conservation of Energy (which says: Energy can neither be created nor destroyed) is flawed, Banerjee clarified that certain new concepts arising out of his own postulations would have to get a firm footing first. "For instance, the concept of 'internal force,' 'internal force moved body' and 'velocity addition' as proposed in the new theory would need innovations in the fields of electromagnetic and hydraulic systems," he said. Successful implementation of the concept, fortified with designs and mathematical derivations, could mean a gradual elimination of the conventional sources of energy (fossil fuels) ensuring a pollution-free environment, the technology expert said. The theory could also be used to describe the principles for the design of interstellar spacecrafts using the perpetual motion machine, Banerjee pointed out."Designing an engine that delivers more power than it takes to run has been a dream for all engineers. This concept has the potential to create a portable, cheap and no-noise machine to propel even huge systems," he said. -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com)) From deafbox at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 13:33:58 2003 From: deafbox at hotmail.com (Russell Turpin) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Perpetual Motion Machine Message-ID: Udhay Shankar N: >Anybody know more about this? >From the article, it has most of the symptoms of crankishness. He's challenging core theory, except (a) he's focusing on core theory of previous centuries, Newtonian mechanics rather than QM and GR, (b) he doesn't have a key experiment to show where current theory is wrong, but instead a complex application (perpetual motion) to lure the media, and (c) he hints at revised theory, but hasn't laid it out for other physicists to review, or offered key experiments that it explains. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From lgonze at panix.com Wed Jun 4 10:09:15 2003 From: lgonze at panix.com (lgonze@panix.com) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: web home for waste Message-ID: I've gotten a bunch of queries about WASTE, generally with a focus on user problems like how to get a connection or FAQ issues like how to build on OS X. To help people to help each other, as well as to foster discussion of technical issues related to WASTE, I have created a mailing list and web home at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/waste-discuss/. - Lucas From gbolcer at endeavors.com Wed Jun 4 09:17:19 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: NYTimes.com Article: No Bunker Found Under Bomb Site References: <20030604084326.756A8848E@web39t.prvt.nytimes.com> Message-ID: <3EDE0D7F.E359D4AD@endeavors.com> khare@alumni.caltech.edu wrote: > > This article from NYTimes.com > has been sent to you by khare@alumni.caltech.edu. > > My nomination for the most interesting footnote of the entire war... so far. > > RK > That's funny. They relied on the paper trail of contractees to determine that there actually was one. Wouldn't it be hilarious if it was just a ruse to fool US intelligence? Think about it, they might even have paid the contractors without doing the work they were so flush with cash. Greg From jtauber at jtauber.com Thu Jun 5 00:39:46 2003 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: NYTimes.com Article: No Bunker Found Under Bomb Site In-Reply-To: <3EDE0D7F.E359D4AD@endeavors.com> References: <20030604084326.756A8848E@web39t.prvt.nytimes.com> <3EDE0D7F.E359D4AD@endeavors.com> Message-ID: <20030604153946.102C434318@www.fastmail.fm> > That's funny. They relied on the paper trail > of contractees to determine that there actually > was one. Wouldn't it be hilarious if it was > just a ruse to fool US intelligence? Think about it, > they might even have paid the contractors without > doing the work they were so flush with cash. Reminds me of MI5, who when bugging the Soviet Embassy in London labeled them with random numbers from a broader range than the actual number of bugs so that, even after all the bugs were found, the Russians would continue to tear up the building looking for more. (reference: Spycatcher by Peter Wright) James -- James Tauber http://jtauber.com/ From tomwhore at slack.net Wed Jun 4 12:46:32 2003 From: tomwhore at slack.net (Tom) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:38:59 2003 Subject: Rogue AOL Subsidiary Leader to Resign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 2003, Adam L Beberg wrote: --] --]So explain exactly how he's a good guy again? --] Forget the fact the guy got together a great team of folks (Tom Peper alone is worth 10 Bebergs), forget shoutcasting, forget gnutella, forget beep, forget pimp, forget all the winamp stuff... You hating him so much with jealous rage is enough to make him tops in my books. -tomwsmf From jbone at deepfile.com Wed Jun 4 12:11:53 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: NYTimes.com Article: No Bunker Found Under Bomb Site In-Reply-To: <3EDE0D7F.E359D4AD@endeavors.com> Message-ID: <415BDC00-96A7-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> On Wednesday, Jun 4, 2003, at 10:17 US/Central, Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote: > Wouldn't it be hilarious if it was > just a ruse to fool US intelligence? Even more hilarious if it was a ruse to fool the 4/5 of the world that didn't buy the justification anyway. Blair taking heat: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2962328.stm jb From tomwhore at slack.net Wed Jun 4 13:26:41 2003 From: tomwhore at slack.net (Tom) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: NYTimes.com Article: No Bunker Found Under Bomb Site In-Reply-To: <415BDC00-96A7-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> Message-ID: So lets see...Iraq is under US occupation but still no bio or nuke wepons of mass destruction; reports of stockpilings of paintball equipment would be welcome at this point. No Sadman Insaney either as well as the still missing bulk of the infamous Iraq Army we were up against. No Osama Bin Laden, but thats ok caus emost flks have forgoten about him. We are still in Afgahnastan and things are still shaking down there. From eh at mad.scientist.com Wed Jun 4 13:31:33 2003 From: eh at mad.scientist.com (Eirikur Hallgrimsson) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: Perpetual Motion Machine In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030604145515.00acdc50@frodo.hserus.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030604145515.00acdc50@frodo.hserus.net> Message-ID: <200306041231.33707.eh@mad.scientist.com> Perpetual motion machines based on complex cyclic systems have always turned out to be ordinary, lossy, systems. There is a LOT of history in this area. It's hard to model such things, and even harder to do the lab work. Such reports turn out to be based on an inventor who doesn't know how to do the correct lab work, or is a con artist. Anything like that that produced more energy than it consumes would be real serious front-page science news. Eirikur (dedicated fringe watcher) From rah at shipwright.com Wed Jun 4 12:24:18 2003 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: Sampling the Kalahari cactus diet Message-ID: BBC NEWS | Programmes | Correspondent | Friday, 30 May, 2003, 09:56 GMT 10:56 UK Sampling the Kalahari cactus diet The San bushmen have eaten the plant for years Correspondent's Tom Mangold travelled to Africa and sampled the appetite suppressing Hoodia, a plant which may make Kalahari bushmen millionaires. By Tom Mangold BBC Two's Correspondent Imagine this: an organic pill that kills the appetite and attacks obesity. It has no known side-effects, and contains a molecule that fools your brain into believing you are full. Deep inside the African Kalahari desert, grows an ugly cactus called the Hoodia. It thrives in extremely high temperatures, and takes years to mature. The San Bushmen of the Kalahari, one of the world's oldest and most primitive tribes, had been eating the Hoodia for thousands of years, to stave off hunger during long hunting trips. When South African scientists were routinely testing it, they discovered the plant contained a previously unknown molecule, which has since been christened P 57. The license was sold to a Cambridgeshire bio-pharmaceutical company, Phytopharm, who in turn sold the development and marketing rights to the giant Pfizer Corporation. Fortune cactus A molecule in the cactus makes you feel full When I travelled to the Kalahari, I met families of the San bushmen. It is a sad, impoverished and displaced tribe, still unaware they are sitting on top of a goldmine. But if the Hoodia works, the 100,000 San strung along the edge of the Kalahari will become overnight millionaires on royalties negotiated by their South African lawyer Roger Chennells. And they will need all the help they can to secure the money. Currently, many bushmen smoke large quantities of marijuana, suffer from alcoholism, and have neither possessions nor any sense of the value of money. The truth is no-one has fully grasped what the magic molecule means for their counterparts in the developed world. Blood sugar According to the British Heart Foundation 17% of men and 21% of women are obese, while 46% of men and 32% of women are overweight. So the drug's marketing potential speaks for itself. Phytopharm's Dr Richard Dixey explained how P.57 actually works: "There is a part of your brain, the hypothalamus. Within that mid-brain there are nerve cells that sense glucose sugar. "When you eat, blood sugar goes up because of the food, these cells start firing and now you are full. "What the Hoodia seems to contain is a molecule that is about 10,000 times as active as glucose. "It goes to the mid-brain and actually makes those nerve cells fire as if you were full. But you have not eaten. Nor do you want to." Clinical trials Dixey organised the first animal trials for Hoodia. Rats, a species that will eat literally anything, stopped eating completely. When the first human clinical trial was conducted, a morbidly obese group of people were placed in a "phase 1 unit", a place as close to prison as it gets. All the volunteers could do all day was read papers, watch television, and eat. Half were given Hoodia, half placebo. Fifteen days later, the Hoodia group had reduced their calorie intake by 1000 a day. It was a stunning success. The cactus test In order to see for ourselves, we drove into the desert, four hours north of Capetown in search of the cactus. Once there, we found an unattractive plant which sprouts about 10 tentacles, and is the size of a long cucumber. Each tentacle is covered in spikes which need to be carefully peeled. The San will finally throw off thousands of years of oppression, poverty, social isolation and discrimination Roger Chennells, lawyer Inside is a slightly unpleasant-tasting, fleshy plant. At about 1800hrs I ate about half a banana size - and later so did my cameraman. Soon after, we began the four hour drive back to Capetown. The plant is said to have a feel-good almost aphrodisiac quality, and I have to say, we felt good. But more significantly, we did not even think about food. Our brains really were telling us we were full. It was a magnificent deception. Dinner time came and went. We reached our hotel at about midnight and went to bed without food. And the next day, neither of us wanted nor ate breakfast. I ate lunch but without appetite and very little pleasure. Partial then full appetite returned slowly after 24 hours. The future Mr Chennells is ecstatic: "The San will finally throw off thousands of years of oppression, poverty, social isolation and discrimination. "We will create trust funds with their Hoodia royalties and the children will join South Africa's middle classes in our lifetime. "I envisage Hoodia cafes in London and New York, salads will be served and the Hoodia cut like cucumber on to the salad. "It will need flavouring to counter its unpleasant taste, but if it has no side effects and no cumulative side-effects." Unfortunately for the overweight, Hoodia will not be around for several years, the clinical trials still have several years to run. Do not travel to the Kalahari to steal the cactus as it is hard to find and illegal to export. And beware internet sites offering Hoodia "pills" from the US as we tested the leading brand and discovered it has no discernible Hoodia in it. So just be patient. Help is at hand. -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From jbone at deepfile.com Wed Jun 4 12:51:00 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: NYTimes.com Article: No Bunker Found Under Bomb Site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wednesday, Jun 4, 2003, at 11:26 US/Central, Tom wrote: > So lets see...Iraq is under US occupation but still no bio or nuke > wepons > of mass destruction; reports of stockpilings of paintball equipment > would > be welcome at this point. No Sadman Insaney either as well as the still > missing bulk of the infamous Iraq Army we were up against. No Osama Bin > Laden, but thats ok caus emost flks have forgoten about him. We are > still > in Afgahnastan and things are still shaking down there. That's a pretty good rundown. On the international front you forgot: the dollar is sinking to an all-time low against other benchmark currencies, riding on a global trend of unprecedented and vicious (and possibly justified) anti-Americanism. Al Qaeda terrorist activities continue apace internationally. And Europe's sending robots to Mars while we can't even get our space truck to LEO. Meanwhile, on the home front almost EVERY state in the nation is essentially bankrupt, we're expanding federal spending while running up a huge deficit at an unprecedented rate; enacting tax cuts (I *do* love tax cuts, but I mean, really) that disproportionately benefit the top economic strata --- these so egregious that even wealthy folks like Warren Buffett take exception to them. Unemployment is skyrocketing, and small / medium / early-stage businesses are being CRUSHED out of existence at an unprecedented rate; The religious / moral authoritarians are getting their lifestyle and moral choices encoded as law. Science, art, intellect, and liberal tolerance are under cultural assault from all quarters. A "fear the future" neo-luddite trend has taken hold even in some scientific / technological / intellectual circles. From the statehouse to the nation's Capitol our basic constitutional rights and freedoms are under assault, and we've essentially repealed most of the Bill of Rights --- getting ready to do in the rest of them w/ PATRIOT II. We have machine gun-armed police in our airports and gov't agencies digging through our personal data. We have a giant and spooky new government agency - the "Department of Homeland Security" with uncertain charter getting involved in partisan political issues at a state level, in service of the current RULING party. We have a quasi-state run propaganda channel lying outrageously 24x7 in service of a far-right agenda. We've become so insanely nationalistic that great artists like the Dixie Chicks who express dissenting views suffer enormous and ridiculous backlash, contributing to a climate people being afraid to speak out. More parallels between the US and immediately pre-Nazi Germany or Mussolini's Italy than you can shake a stick at. We have an unelected president in the White House surrounded by the scariest and most criminal cabinet and team of advisors ever assembled. And the only hope of undoing the coup is a bunch of weak loser Democratic candidates none of whom appear capable of winning. Does that about sum up the fubar, Tom? jb From joe at barrera.org Wed Jun 4 10:51:07 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: Sampling the Kalahari cactus diet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EDE237B.4010505@barrera.org> R. A. Hettinga wrote: > By Tom Mangold > BBC Two's Correspondent > > [...] > The plant is said to have a feel-good almost aphrodisiac quality, and I have to say, we felt good. Oops, well, there we go. That makes a DRUG as opposed to a medicine and thus it will never be legal in the USA. Oh well. - Joe From Kenneth.Meltsner at ca.com Wed Jun 4 13:57:45 2003 From: Kenneth.Meltsner at ca.com (Meltsner, Kenneth) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: Sampling the Kalahari cactus diet Message-ID: <039E46C3C030AE4E871CEEBC6868063901FDE71D@usilms24.ca.com> Figure out how to grow it in Utah and you'll be OK -- Garn's the guy that has protected the "plants that might be drugs (except evil ones)" market for years, and is the reason why you can buy ephedra or St. John's Wort as long as the seller stops short of saying that it might help you medically. If ephedra can be sold legally (and I believe it still can, in most states), you can sell anything. Ken > -----Original Message----- > From: Joseph S. Barrera III [mailto:joe@barrera.org] > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 11:51 AM > > Oops, well, there we go. That makes a DRUG as opposed to a > medicine and thus > it will never be legal in the USA. From jamesr at best.com Wed Jun 4 11:45:48 2003 From: jamesr at best.com (James Rogers) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: NYTimes.com Article: No Bunker Found Under Bomb Site In-Reply-To: <3EDE0D7F.E359D4AD@endeavors.com> Message-ID: <003601c32ac1$22143430$f200000a@avalon> Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote: > > That's funny. They relied on the paper trail > of contractees to determine that there actually > was one. Wouldn't it be hilarious if it was > just a ruse to fool US intelligence? Think about it, > they might even have paid the contractors without > doing the work they were so flush with cash. Even more amusing, this is a standard trick from our own playbook that we've used to great effect for at least half a century, and was very effective against the Soviet Union during the Cold War. Pulling it off on a large scale requires countries to have money to burn though; you won't see a country like North Korea pulling off this stunt in a credible fashion. I would guess that the US intelligence community didn't give Saddam enough credit for deviousness, though I am sure the Russians (who are on top of this game) helped him out quite a bit. The US intelligence community has also been taken like this more than once on small scales, but if you have the money to do it right it is hard to see through these kinds of ruses. The US built incredibly elaborate paper tigers for the Soviet Union to chase that worked very well, and the Soviet Union was a fairly competent opponent in many regards. -James Rogers jamesr@best.com From tomwhore at slack.net Wed Jun 4 14:47:17 2003 From: tomwhore at slack.net (Tom) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: Is There A Doctor In The Homeland Message-ID: >From boingboing "Homeland security honcha has phony PhD A senior technical official in the Homeland Security Department has a phony Ph.D. from a diploma mill. I'm thinking that I'd like to get one of these and join my parents (Dr. and Dr. Doctorow) as Dr. Doctorow, Jr. Laura L. Callahan, now senior director in the office of department CIO Steven Cooper, states on her professional biography that she "holds a Ph.D. in Computer Information Systems from Hamilton University." Callahan, who is also president of the Association for Federal IRM and a member of the CIO Council, is commonly called by the title "Dr."... Hamilton University, according to an Internet search, is located in Evanston, Wyo. It is affiliated with and supported by Faith in the Order of Nature Fellowship Church, also in Evanston. The state of Wyoming does not license Hamilton because it claims a religious exemption. Oregon has identified Hamilton University as a diploma mill unaccredited by any organization recognized by the U.S. Department of Education. " From jamesr at best.com Wed Jun 4 11:57:01 2003 From: jamesr at best.com (James Rogers) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: Tax cuts (was RE: NYTimes.com Article: No Bunker Found Under Bomb Site) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003701c32ac2$b33a99d0$f200000a@avalon> Jeff Bone wrote: > enacting tax cuts (I *do* > love tax cuts, but I mean, really) that disproportionately > benefit the top economic strata If it really *is* tax cuts and not a welfare program with the "tax cut" label stuck to it, it is really hard to ignore the pretty stark assymetry of who actually pays federal taxes to the general fund. If you want actual federal tax cuts for the bottom 50%, you'll have to raise taxes on those people first. Otherwise, "tax cuts for the rich" are what you are left with if you are talking about the Federal government. It is erroneous to assume that the Federal government has the ability to cut taxes for the bottom half with the current tax distribution. Any tax cuts for the bottom half will have to come from the States, where most of the taxes on lower income people actually come from. But you aren't going to see this as long as most States continue to spend tax dollars like drunken sailors. Cheers, -James Rogers jamesr@best.com From deafbox at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 19:07:32 2003 From: deafbox at hotmail.com (Russell Turpin) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: Is There A Doctor In The Homeland Message-ID: The odd thing about this is that a Ph.D. in computer science or engineering is pretty much superfluous to the vast majority of industry or government positions. Managing (part of) the information systems for a firm is very much a practical skill, and I would hire someone with related experience and no degree long before I would hire someone with beaucoup degrees and no experience. Certainly, I wouldn't look askance at someone in such position because they lack a graduate degree. On the other hand, lying on a resume, and especially padding a resume with a fake degree from a diploma mill, shows not only dishonesty, but the kind of dishonesty that thinks everyone else is so dumb that it will never come to light. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jm at jmason.org Wed Jun 4 12:12:42 2003 From: jm at jmason.org (Justin Mason) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: NYTimes.com Article: No Bunker Found Under Bomb Site In-Reply-To: Message from khare@alumni.caltech.edu <20030604084326.756A8848E@web39t.prvt.nytimes.com> Message-ID: <20030604181248.0CFF116FC8@jmason.org> khare@alumni.caltech.edu said: > WASHINGTON, May 28 (Reuters) - There was no bunker under > the Baghdad compound the United States bombed on the > opening night of the Iraq war in an effort to kill Saddam > Hussein, CBS News reported tonight. > > The network quoted an Army officer, Col. Tim Madere, who is > in charge of inspecting sites in Baghdad, as saying there > was no trace of a bunker or bodies at the site. > > "When we came out here, the primary thing they were looking > for was an underground facility, or bodies, forensics, and > basically, what they saw was giant holes created," he said. > "No underground facilities, no bodies." > > CBS News said the C.I.A. searched the area once and the > colonel searched it twice. Interesting that report missed this other key bit: The network said the main palace in the compound remained standing despite the surrounding destruction. It quoted Madere as saying anyone who had been in the building could have survived the raid. --j. From tomwhore at slack.net Wed Jun 4 15:28:50 2003 From: tomwhore at slack.net (Tom) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: 6/4 and Waste Message-ID: I was going back over some links and restumbled on 6/4. Has anyoneplayed with it. In recent days Waste seems to have done something like, unlike it. Whats the connection? From tomwhore at slack.net Wed Jun 4 15:34:24 2003 From: tomwhore at slack.net (Tom) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: 6/4 and Waste In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 2003, Tom wrote: --] --]I was going back over some links and restumbled on 6/4. Has anyoneplayed --]with it. In recent days Waste seems to have done something like, unlike --]it. Whats the connection? --] Answers own question, slow fork day, Waste makes blackhole private networks, 6/4 lets folks in the block holes of network insecurity policy land get out to the public wide range net. From dl at silcom.com Wed Jun 4 12:56:35 2003 From: dl at silcom.com (Dave Long) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: Checkpointing number theory discussion / Ugh In-Reply-To: Message from Jeff Bone <4F7A47F4-9052-11D7-B704-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> Message-ID: <200306041856.LAA19944@maltesecat> > JS suggests that despite arguments from number theory and some > interpretations of e.g. QM, there is no particularly compelling > evidence to suggest that the universe is not in fact being calculated, > probably by a relatively short program. It had better be a relatively short program with a very long input tape of random bits, then. Einstein had spent a good portion of his life in trying to come up with deterministic theories to explain QM, but when the experiments were done, they came out in favor of a stochastic universe. [0,1] > I'm not sure counting numbers are a > reasonable proxy for all finite descriptions; for one thing, it's > difficult to capture the notion of recursion, which certainly some > finite descriptions of infinite strings might use. Huh?[2] What's the difference between recursion and counting? Both of them are a matter of either (a) taking the next step or (b) bottoming out. I think that is Harley's objection to the reals: calculations in any formal system are recursions, and so limited (in some sense) to the countable. [3] -Dave :: :: :: [0] I'm more inclined to bet on Bohr and Chaitin than on Schmidhuber and Augustine, as a result. [1] contrast playing roulette, which is a matter of bouncing a ball into a spinning wheel, and in principle (at least outside a casino) is amenable to newtonian analysis, with forcing photons to orthogonal polarizations, which in principle is only a matter of measurement, not prediction. [2] being wrong half the time may be a good way to accumulate information, but it's a lousy way to communicate. (what happens to channel capacity?) In the case where asking questions has an opportunity cost, it doesn't pay to be wrong half the time, or even slightly under half. Consider the problem of betting on coin flips when one has the unfair advantage of a 51% chance of success. (anyone who has been reading Shannon lately (I'm looking at you, jb) ought to be able to write a formal solution, but it's also easy enough to simulate the process to get a fair idea of how Goldilocks ought to bet) [3] I'll leave it to Turpin to decide whether or not second-order statements are where the reals and the LST fail to intersect. From jeff at k2.com Wed Jun 4 15:50:56 2003 From: jeff at k2.com (Jeffrey Kay) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: 6/4 and Waste In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <009801c32aca$3b813630$017410ac@k2.com> If you want to read an interesting 6/4 idea, look at Microsoft's Teredo, aka shipworm in the IETF (sorry, no link handy). They've implemented it in Windows XP and as part of 3 Degrees (www.threedegrees.com), an IM/community sort of thingy. jeffrey kay weblog pgp key aim share files with me -- get shinkuro -- "first get your facts, then you can distort them at your leisure" -- mark twain "if the person in the next lane at the stoplight rolls up the window and locks the door, support their view of life by snarling at them" -- a biker's guide to life "if A equals success, then the formula is A equals X plus Y plus Z. X is work. Y is play. Z is keep your mouth shut." -- albert einstein > -----Original Message----- > From: fork-bounces@xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces@xent.com] On > Behalf Of Tom > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 2:34 PM > To: fork@xent.com > Subject: Re: 6/4 and Waste > > > On Wed, 4 Jun 2003, Tom wrote: > > --] > --]I was going back over some links and restumbled on 6/4. > Has anyoneplayed > --]with it. In recent days Waste seems to have done something > like, unlike > --]it. Whats the connection? > --] > > Answers own question, slow fork day, Waste makes blackhole private > networks, 6/4 lets folks in the block holes of network > insecurity policy > land get out to the public wide range net. > > > From jbone at deepfile.com Wed Jun 4 14:57:04 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: Tax cuts (was RE: NYTimes.com Article: No Bunker Found Under Bomb Site) In-Reply-To: <003701c32ac2$b33a99d0$f200000a@avalon> Message-ID: <54EB26A4-96BE-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> On Wednesday, Jun 4, 2003, at 12:57 US/Central, James Rogers wrote: > Jeff Bone wrote: >> enacting tax cuts (I *do* >> love tax cuts, but I mean, really) that disproportionately >> benefit the top economic strata > > If it really *is* tax cuts and not a welfare program with the "tax cut" > label stuck to it, it is really hard to ignore the pretty stark > assymetry of > who actually pays federal taxes to the general fund. If you want > actual > federal tax cuts for the bottom 50%, you'll have to raise taxes on > those > people first. Otherwise, "tax cuts for the rich" are what you are > left with > if you are talking about the Federal government. I detest welfare, I think it's an insidious and terminal kind of social cancer. I don't *in principle* favor any sort of *targeted* tax cut, and hence I'm not arguing that tax cuts should be targeted at some class (like the lower 50% of earners) or another. In fact, the wealthy pay the lion's share of all taxes, and I believe they should get the lion's share of all tax cuts. In principle. I do not agree with the utilitarian assessment that a dollar is worth less when you have $1M of them than when you have $10. Of course, it's a smaller percentage of your wealth --- but the *value* of that dollar in exchange for something (consumption) or its usefulness in creating new wealth (investment) is exactly the same no matter what your net worth is. (Otherwise, the market would base pricing on an individual's net worth --- a millionaire would pay $5000 for the same TV that a construction worker gets for $100, or whatever.) If you want to go the full distance, I believe that a flat income tax is "more fair" to *all* involved than supposedly "progressive" systems. (Progressive systems ALL share the characteristic that there are serious speed bumps in the wealth-accumulation curve based on the bracketing. Instead of enabling a smooth, continuous accumulation of wealth, they actually inhibit certain qualitative increases at key points.) And a national retail sales tax is better on almost every dimension than any income tax. My problem with the current tax cuts is that they don't accomplish what they are designed to accomplish. Economic stimulus cannot be achieved at this point by putting more money in the pockets of wealthy individuals. The economy needs a handful of things in order to get going again: more jobs, more consumption, more *public market* investment, and freer flow of capital investment to small and medium businesses. The only one of these things addressed by tax relief for the wealthy is the public market investment question, and it's (a) probably the least important, and (b) will probably take care of itself if the other issues are addressed! It's a myth that wealthy individuals create large number of jobs; that comes from existing corporate growth (which depends on consumption) and from entrepreneurial effort (which depends on capital.) More consumption depends on income which depends on jobs, job competition, and salary increases in a competitive job market. Freer flow of capital requires finishing the shake-out (nearly done) and a return to reasonable mid-term liquidity, which ultimately depends on overall business climate --- not impacted by wealthy individuals. I.e., the venture capital funds don't need more money, they need to distribute more of what they've already got. > It is erroneous to assume that the Federal government has the ability > to cut > taxes for the bottom half with the current tax distribution. Well, sure. But that's kind of tautological, isn't it? ;-) jb From jbone at deepfile.com Wed Jun 4 15:11:13 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: Checkpointing number theory discussion / Ugh In-Reply-To: <200306041856.LAA19944@maltesecat> Message-ID: <4EF98F1D-96C0-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> On Wednesday, Jun 4, 2003, at 13:56 US/Central, Dave Long wrote: >> JS suggests that despite arguments from number theory and some >> interpretations of e.g. QM, there is no particularly compelling >> evidence to suggest that the universe is not in fact being calculated, >> probably by a relatively short program. > > It had better be a relatively short > program with a very long input tape > of random bits, then. Lots of assumptions, there. Before you can even make that kind of assertion, you've got to have some well-formed ideas about randomness, infinity, the concept 'universe,' and whether such a universe is finite or infinite for various senses of all those words. > Einstein had > spent a good portion of his life in > trying to come up with deterministic > theories to explain QM, but when the > experiments were done, they came out > in favor of a stochastic universe. [0,1] t'Hooft is leaning in favor of determinism at quantum scales these days. [1][2][3] [1] http://www.nature.com/nsu/030106/030106-6.html [2] http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0212095 [3] http://www.phys.uu.nl/~thooft/quantloss/index.htm > [0] I'm more inclined to bet on Bohr > and Chaitin than on Schmidhuber and > Augustine, as a result. I've got a lot to say about Cantor, Godel, Chaitin, and particularly Rucker et. al. at some point. But I'm letting it digest for a while, maybe a long while. :-) (BTW, I've been skimming through Godel's Collected Works, Volume III --- his unpublished letters and stuff. The man was an evil genius, and probably mad. Heady stuff. One thing is quite clear, though: like his disciple Rucker, Godel was a mystic. :-) BTW, go check out some of Brouwer's arguments against the idea of uncountable infinite sets. If we're betting on physicists, I'll take t'Hooft over Bohr. :-) jb From deafbox at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 20:25:41 2003 From: deafbox at hotmail.com (Russell Turpin) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: Checkpointing number theory discussion / Ugh Message-ID: Dave Long: >It had better be a relatively short >program with a very long input tape >of random bits, then. Einstein had >spent a good portion of his life in >trying to come up with deterministic >theories to explain QM, but when the >experiments were done, they came out >in favor of a stochastic universe. [0,1] That story needs to be updated. Physicists have spent a lot of time trying to pin down just where physics is stochastic, and despite decades of refining experiments, they have failed to pin down wave collapse. The Schrodinger equation, on its face, is perfectly deterministic. Wave collapse is an event outside Schrodinger evolution. A stochastic interpretation arises only to preserve the notion that we observers are exempt from the Schrodinger equation. If you accept the notion that people, also, are quantum systems, then observation doesn't cause a magical wave collapse of the system observed, but instead mixes our quantum state per the usual laws of QM. This presents the appearance of randomness, but in fact is just the usual mixing of states that all quantum systems experience. According to this account, the universe IS deterministic. More and more physicists are adopting the many-worlds interpretation, simply because there is no good account of wave collapse. When a physicist observes an experiment where this supposedly occurs, when does it occur? When the photon impinges on his retina? When a nerve cell in the optic bundle fires? When the optical cortex processes that bit of information? When the frontal cortex identifies the perception as the result of a quantum experiment? And why should human brains stop the normal evolution of the world per the Schrodinger equation, and cause instead a mystical wave collapse? See the problem? _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From jm at jmason.org Wed Jun 4 13:41:25 2003 From: jm at jmason.org (Justin Mason) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: Wolfowitz: Iraq war was about oil (fwd) Message-ID: <20030604194130.DB7AC16FC8@jmason.org> Wow. The whole thing gets more and more surreal every day... --j. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0%2c2763%2c970331%2c00.html Oil was the main reason for military action against Iraq, a leading White House hawk has claimed, confirming the worst fears of those opposed to the US-led war. The US deputy defence secretary, Paul Wolfowitz - who has already undermined Tony Blair's position over weapons of mass destruction (WMD) by describing them as a "bureaucratic" excuse for war - has now gone further by claiming the real motive was that Iraq is "swimming" in oil. The latest comments were made by Mr Wolfowitz in an address to delegates at an Asian security summit in Singapore at the weekend, and reported today by German newspapers Der Tagesspiegel and Die Welt. Asked why a nuclear power such as North Korea was being treated differently from Iraq, where hardly any weapons of mass destruction had been found, the deputy defence minister said: "Let's look at it simply. The most important difference between North Korea and Iraq is that economically, we just had no choice in Iraq. The country swims on a sea of oil." Mr Wolfowitz went on to tell journalists at the conference that the US was set on a path of negotiation to help defuse tensions between North Korea and its neighbours - in contrast to the more belligerent attitude the Bush administration displayed in its dealings with Iraq. His latest comments follow his widely reported statement from an interview in Vanity Fair last month, in which he said that "for reasons that have a lot to do with the US government bureaucracy, we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on: weapons of mass destruction." Prior to that, his boss, defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld, had already undermined the British government's position by saying Saddam Hussein may have destroyed his banned weapons before the war. Mr Wolfowitz's frank assessment of the importance of oil could not come at a worse time for the US and UK governments, which are both facing fierce criticism at home and abroad over allegations that they exaggerated the threat posed by Saddam Hussein in order to justify the war. Amid growing calls from all parties for a public inquiry, the foreign affairs select committee announced last night it would investigate claims that the UK government misled the country over its evidence of Iraq's WMD. The move is a major setback for Tony Blair, who had hoped to contain any inquiry within the intelligence and security committee, which meets in secret and reports to the prime minister. In the US, the failure to find solid proof of chemical, biological and nuclear arms in Iraq has raised similar concerns over Mr Bush's justification for the war and prompted calls for congressional investigations. Mr Wolfowitz is viewed as one of the most hawkish members of the Bush administration. The 57-year old expert in international relations was a strong advocate of military action against Afghanistan and Iraq. Following the September 11 terror attacks on the World Trade Centre and Pentagon, Mr Wolfowitz pledged that the US would pursue terrorists and "end" states' harbouring or sponsoring of militants. Prior to his appointment to the Bush cabinet in February 2001, Mr Wolfowitz was dean and professor of international relations at the Paul H Nitze School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS), of the Johns Hopkins University. From deafbox at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 20:48:23 2003 From: deafbox at hotmail.com (Russell Turpin) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: Declining utility (was: Tax cuts) Message-ID: Jeff Bone: >I do not agree with the utilitarian assessment that a dollar is worth less >when you have $1M of them than when you have $10. .. Is this the same Jeff Bone who a few months ago said that the next time he has enough wealth not to work again, he won't? That statement implies to me that you assign a decreasing utility to dollars, and that you will do things to accumulate dollars between the first and the 10 millionth (just to pull a number out of air), that you won't do after reaching that point. Let me put this another way. Economists believe that almost everything has decreasing utility to an individual. It's important to have one residence. It might be nice to have a few other residences scattered throughout the world for one's customary migrations. But after a certain point, it's easier just to rent hotel rooms. One car is important. A few are nice. But what do you do with a thousand in your garage? Similarly with clothing, food, boats, personal chefs and trainers, airplanes, and almost everything else one might want. Even retinues and mistresses are more valuable in the first few. Note that this has nothing to do with the market price of something, but instead is about its utility for the individual. If this is the case for every good or service that money can buy, then how can it not be the case for money, also? Are you challenging the notion for goods and services in general? Or just for money? _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jbone at deepfile.com Wed Jun 4 15:50:47 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: Checkpointing number theory discussion / Ugh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wednesday, Jun 4, 2003, at 14:25 US/Central, Russell Turpin wrote: > And why should human brains > stop the normal evolution of the world per > the Schrodinger equation, and cause > instead a mystical wave collapse? > > See the problem? 20/20. Of course, if you're Roger Penrose you immediately jump to speculating that there are magical little structures in the human brain --- "microtubules," the existence of which is suggested by *ABSOLUTELY NO* empirical evidence--- that perform this function for us. Humans determine nature, the sun revolves around the earth, and the sky is a painted dome. Mmm-hmm. Sure. Point being, even distinguished scientists like Penrose can make astoundingly wild leaps of imagination, speculation, conjecture, and so forth. The fact that they are scientists doesn't make everything they suggest "science" --- and with that in mind, I've been taking a good look at infinite sets, surreal and transcendent numbers, and randomness again lately. ;-) (The corollary is that not everything a mathematician scribbles down using mathematical notation needs be "math" either. :-) I have this suspicion that a LARGE part of the scientific history of the 20th century was a DESPERATE attempt to deny determinism, justify free will, and ultimately to rationalize mysticism. In many cases, it's not the theories that are particularly suspect --- just their interpretations. jb From jamesr at best.com Wed Jun 4 14:00:25 2003 From: jamesr at best.com (James Rogers) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: Wolfowitz: Iraq war was about oil (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20030604194130.DB7AC16FC8@jmason.org> Message-ID: <004a01c32ad3$f060fd20$f200000a@avalon> Justin Mason wrote: > > Wow. The whole thing gets more and more surreal every day... In defense of Wolfowitz (don't see that every day), the Vanity Fair story (which I posted a reference to a couple days ago) and other stories like the above do not give an accurate impression of what Wolfowitz actually said and the selected quotes are pulled significantly out of context. The articles make it sound like Wolfowitz really went "out there" making some pretty heavy assertions, but reading the whole transcript gives a very different impression. What Wolfowitz has been actually saying isn't nearly as interesting as it sounds if you use the popular media as your only source. As usual, the media cherry picks lines without preserving context out of a much larger transcript and then glues them together to make it sound like someone said something substantially different than what they actually said. The usual mad spin we've come to know and love from all parties. Par for the course. -James Rogers jamesr@best.com From jbone at deepfile.com Wed Jun 4 16:20:20 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: Declining utility (was: Tax cuts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wednesday, Jun 4, 2003, at 14:48 US/Central, Russell Turpin wrote: > Jeff Bone: >> I do not agree with the utilitarian assessment that a dollar is worth >> less when you have $1M of them than when you have $10. .. > > Is this the same Jeff Bone who a few months > ago said that the next time he has enough > wealth not to work again, he won't? Sorry, I should be clear that I'm not disagreeing with utility theory in general --- I'm disagreeing that this is a legitimate basis for tax policy. Here's the problem: even in traditional economics, utility is not treated as an objectively-existing thing in itself but rather something that is tightly intertwined with the needs and resources of consensually-interacting agents. That is, utility ultimately cannot be objectively measured across all agents; utility measures imply use and context. "Utility is the satisfaction people get from consuming (using) a good or a service. Utility varies from person to person. Some people get more satisfaction from eating chips than others. Even the same person can gain greater satisfaction by eating chips when hungry than when he has lost his appetite." [1] Basing tax policy on some speculative, objective notion of utility is the same as making an a priori assessment "you need this cash less than this other guy." And that's not "fair" in even the leftist Rawls sense of the word --- it assumes a particular preferential stance *in outcome.* It does not consider the impact on goal achievement and the dilution of rewards for efforts / abilities that might differ between the people in question. As a trivial, generic example: let's assume that you have earning potential 3X and I have earning potential X. You have goal Y which requires 2X and I have goal Z which requires .8X. Achieving these goals, let's say for the sake of argument, is the SOLE reason both of us act in a maximally economically productive fashion rather than in some sort of subsistence baseline behavior. Under progressive schemes, I am able to achieve my goal --- even though it represents the use of a greater amount of my accumulated wealth over the period --- and you are not. The tax system has implicitly decided that your efforts and abilities relative to your goals are worth less than mine. And in doing so, it (like welfare) creates potentially negative incentives for economic productivity. IT PUNISHES ACHIEVEMENT AND ENCOURAGES MEDIOCRITY. There's no way to construct a Rawls-"fair" tax system that is based on any objective notion of utility. You have to focus on purchasing power, and that is consistent across all people no matter what their net worth or particular consumption or wealth creation needs or desires. jb [1] http://www.bized.ac.uk/stafsup/options/notes/econ207.htm#Heading82 From jbone at deepfile.com Wed Jun 4 16:21:21 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: Wolfowitz: Iraq war was about oil (fwd) In-Reply-To: <004a01c32ad3$f060fd20$f200000a@avalon> Message-ID: <1B0A7FF9-96CA-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> On Wednesday, Jun 4, 2003, at 15:00 US/Central, James Rogers wrote: > In defense of Wolfowitz (don't see that every day), the Vanity Fair > story > (which I posted a reference to a couple days ago) and other stories > like the > above do not give an accurate impression of what Wolfowitz actually > said So what did Wolfowitz actually say, James? jb From khare at alumni.caltech.edu Wed Jun 4 18:29:21 2003 From: khare at alumni.caltech.edu (khare@alumni.caltech.edu) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: NYTimes.com Article: Concorde's French Wake: Wine, Food and Tears Message-ID: <20030604212921.65B4435013@web38t.prvt.nytimes.com> This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by khare@alumni.caltech.edu. Never realized that it takes as long to get from Paris to London on the Eurostar as Paris to New York on the Concorde! Unfortunately, I'm going to miss the locomotive exhibition along the Champs Elysees -- an impressive outdoor lineup of a century of rolling stock... Rob, you gotta send some photos! ;-) Best, TRAVELMAN khare@alumni.caltech.edu /-------------------- advertisement -----------------------\ Explore more of Starbucks at Starbucks.com. http://www.starbucks.com/default.asp?ci=1015 \----------------------------------------------------------/ Concorde's French Wake: Wine, Food and Tears June 3, 2003 By JOE SHARKEY   PARIS -- The last commercial flight of the Air France Concorde lifted off from Kennedy Airport at 8:14 a.m. on Saturday. Twenty minutes out of New York, the plane broke the sound barrier at Mach 1, its needle nose drilling toward the stratosphere on its way to Mach 2. On board, French emotions were close to the surface. Caroline Cadier, a Concorde flight attendant since 1987, fought back tears as she made an announcement to the 68 passengers on board. "It's been now 29 years that Concorde is flying faster than the sun," she said. "And later on, we do hope you'll be proud to say, I was on the last flight of this most beautiful white bird." Cheers went up, and flight attendants began distributing the first round of Champagne. Betraying myself as an American, I glanced furtively at my wristwatch before accepting a glass. But in the seat across the aisle, Mark I. Greene, a lawyer traveling to Frankfurt via Paris for an all-day business meeting on Sunday, displayed a lot more savoir-faire. He merely dialed his wristwatch six hours ahead to French time. "I don't know about you, but I make it 2:35 in the afternoon," Mr. Greene said, raising his glass. In the window seat beside me, Alta Laborde, a woman of a certain age who said she had long worked as a model for Dior, quickly joined the toast. Glasses clicked. She stifled a sob. "Pardon, monsieur, for this trés émotionnel. I am French, you know. Au revoir, Concorde," she said, deftly draining her glass. The Concorde touched down at Charles de Gaulle Airport outside Paris 3 hours and 30 minutes after takeoff - fifteen minutes ahead of schedule. The supersonic part of the flight lasted 2 hours and 36 minutes; the part of the flight that was essentially a sumptuous French meal lasted 3 hours. So festive was the atmosphere on board, incidentally, that passengers were allowed to line up on the aisle to the cockpit, where the three-man flight crew obligingly autographed menus. (Despite the Concordes' speed and elegance, their cabins are somewhat cramped, with a fuselage only 9 feet 5 inches wide). We landed at 5:44 p.m. As the aircraft taxied, thousands of French men and women, some waving flags, lined fences beside the runway. Hundreds more Air France and airport workers stood on rooftops, waving their arms in salute. Airport vehicles in honor-guard formation escorted the famous plane slowly to its gate. Led by the crew, passengers marched off and were greeted by an honor guard formed by another crowd of Air France workers - pilots and flight attendants, mechanics, baggage handlers and more. "Vive la France!" an old man shouted. Of course, given the uneven history of tumultuous receptions in Paris, one must not get carried away here. The supersonic passenger aircraft, let it be stipulated, was a staggeringly expensive project for the French and British governments, which built the Concorde fleets and put them into commercial service in 1976, after several years of test flights. This year, as losses mounted, Air France, which has five Concordes, and British Airways, which has seven, decided to retire the aircraft, which are considered to be relics of an age when a trip to the moon was still an idea that stirred the souls of engineers. (The British Concordes will be retired at the end of October.) The Concorde also had legions of worldwide detractors who denounced it as a noisy, fuel-guzzling toy for the wealthy. And certainly, while liberté and fraternité were encoded in the Concorde mystique, as they are in France's own motto, égalité definitely was not. It cost as much as $14,000 to fly Concorde round-trip between New York and London or Paris. And until recent years, when discrete discounting grew, about 75 percent of the passengers on weekday flights paid full fare. On Saturday, Mr. Greene, the lawyer, said he had taken the flight on short notice. "I didn't even know this was the last flight," he said, explaining that his company travel agent had booked him on Concorde because it was the most viable way to get him to Germany (via a connection through Paris) in time to have a night's sleep before his meeting on Sunday. Incidentally, tearful send-offs notwithstanding, this was not technically the last flight of the French Concorde. Just before takeoff in New York, Guy Tardieu, an Air France executive, explained to me that a special noncommercial Concorde flight would be quietly leaving Paris for New York and back this week, carrying a select group of the most loyal Concorde fliers and various top French government officials. Emotionalism over a dying age was not universal. In the airport lounge after the flight arrived on Saturday, for example, the pilot, Jean-François Michel, shrugged off a question about his feelings. With superb logic, he merely noted, "Now, when you go home from Paris to New York, it will take you almost eight hours." Then on Sunday, a glorious sun-filled day in Paris, I took a stroll on the Champs-Élysées, which was converted into a giant pedestrian mall from the Arc de Triomphe to, oddly enough, the Place de la Concorde. The occasion was a giant celebration of French high-speed rail technology, a technology still only dreamed about in the United States. All day long, tens of thousands of Parisians, many with children in tow, streamed past models of new high-speed Eurostar bullet trains to be introduced this fall. "Paris to London: 2 hours and 35 minutes," the display signs said. n the Road appears each Tuesday. E-mail: jsharkey@nytimes.com. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/03/business/03ROAD.html?ex=1055762161&ei=1&en=5207dc25d93147ed --------------------------------- Get Home Delivery of The New York Times Newspaper. Imagine reading The New York Times any time & anywhere you like! Leisurely catch up on events & expand your horizons. Enjoy now for 50% off Home Delivery! 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Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company From beberg at mithral.com Wed Jun 4 17:52:52 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:00 2003 Subject: Rogue AOL Subsidiary Leader to Resign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wednesday, June 4, 2003, at 10:46 AM, Tom wrote: > On Wed, 4 Jun 2003, Adam L Beberg wrote: > --] > --]So explain exactly how he's a good guy again? > --] > > Forget the fact the guy got together a great team of folks (Tom Peper > alone is worth 10 Bebergs), forget shoutcasting, forget gnutella, > forget > beep, forget pimp, forget all the winamp stuff... You hating him so > much > with jealous rage is enough to make him tops in my books. Not jealous in the slightest. The damage done by Gnutella and such MORE then negates the pretty colors from WinAMP. I mean who ever thought of a program with a playlist that decodes audio files. Wow. We should nominate him for a Nobel prize in physics. Not charging for it was the idea that made him millions, and it doesn't even have ads. *boggles* Guess he knows how to scam AOL tho ;) No, I think I'll stick to doing things that actually make people MORE productive not less. - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From tomwhore at slack.net Wed Jun 4 19:06:31 2003 From: tomwhore at slack.net (Tom) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: Of Beberging and Nothingness Re: Rogue AOL Subsidiary Leader to Resign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 2003, Adam L Beberg wrote: --]Not jealous in the slightest. I read email through shell with a black background and white text and still I can see the vivid deep green of your rage. To everyone but you this is obvious. --]The damage done by Gnutella and such MORE then negates the pretty --]colors from WinAMP. Your idea of damage is many folks idea of working. So boohoo you a stick in the mud, whats new. You want to reign shit on the works of others because your a prudish schmegma stanking gasbag whose best parts ran down your mothers cold thighs. --]I mean who ever thought of a program with a playlist that decodes audio --]files. Wow. We should nominate him for a Nobel prize in physics. More sour grapes from the man who can not or will not code his way into a job, no less a few million dollars like the Nullsoft team did. How much of a crack whore does Team Nullsoft make you look like for sitting on your ass while they make bank on making an mp3 player people actually used? They did, you did not. Boohoo on you. --]No, I think I'll stick to doing things that actually make people MORE --]productive not less. By writing marginally interesting screensavers? Come on Beberg, Justin has done more than you care to admit because doing so cheapens your world view, it leaves you with less worth than the brown tread marked undies that you ass sits on all day while you toss gripes into the electronic winds. Call up Jerry Lewis, maybe he will do you up a telefon. -tomwsmf From beberg at mithral.com Wed Jun 4 18:09:00 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: Tax cuts (was RE: NYTimes.com Article: No Bunker Found Under Bomb Site) In-Reply-To: <003701c32ac2$b33a99d0$f200000a@avalon> Message-ID: <2528C394-96D9-11D7-8855-003065DAE704@mithral.com> On Wednesday, June 4, 2003, at 12:57 PM, James Rogers wrote: > If it really *is* tax cuts and not a welfare program with the "tax cut" > label stuck to it, it is really hard to ignore the pretty stark > assymetry of > who actually pays federal taxes to the general fund. If you want > actual > federal tax cuts for the bottom 50%, you'll have to raise taxes on > those > people first. Otherwise, "tax cuts for the rich" are what you are > left with > if you are talking about the Federal government. With the lastest "cuts" something like 40% of people now pay no federal taxes at all, up from around 30% 10 years ago. And people say that Europe is socialist, ha! So tax cuts for the rich are the only thing left. But the longer we can delay the poor realizing that the problem is that they are obsolete, so they are being replaced by less obsolete better educated Asian workers, the better. Because if history is any indication, every time you get a large number of obsolete folks, they start killing off the ones that aren't. Good thing we have video games to opiate the masses this time ;) - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From elias at cse.ucsc.edu Wed Jun 4 16:53:03 2003 From: elias at cse.ucsc.edu (Elias Sinderson) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: No bunkers, but we've got rovers References: Message-ID: <3EDE784F.6020805@cse.ucsc.edu> Almost nothing at all to do with the current thread, and I generally agree wholeheartedly with your analysis, but... Jeff Bone wrote: > [...] Europe's sending robots to Mars while we can't even [...] I'll be attending the MER launch party this Sunday - we'll be sending up the first of two rovers aimed for the red planet. The second rover is scheduled be launched later this month. FYI, the MER mission patch designs were recently released, you can have a look for yourself at ... Quite amusing, if I do say so myself. :-) Elias From lrivers at mac.com Wed Jun 4 22:02:22 2003 From: lrivers at mac.com (Lorin Rivers) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: Wolfowitz: Iraq war was about oil (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20030604194130.DB7AC16FC8@jmason.org> Message-ID: I predict that Blair is going to lose his job and Bush will keep his. More's the pity, too. "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." -- Hermann Goering in his cell on the evening of 18 April 1946 From gojomo at usa.net Wed Jun 4 21:49:49 2003 From: gojomo at usa.net (Gordon Mohr) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: Rogue AOL Subsidiary Leader to Resign References: Message-ID: <092801c32b15$84747c80$0a0a000a@golden> Adam Beberg writes: > On Wednesday, June 4, 2003, at 02:58 AM, Gordon Mohr wrote: > > > Yeah, it's just awful when someone like Frankel shares their > > half-baked ideas with the world, contributing to a cycle of > > imitation and improvement that eventually touches millions of > > happy users. > > Dude, are you on crack? Yes, you definitely are. > > Gnutella's ass-backwards protocol resulted in thousands of clogged > networks, many annoyed sysadmins, and less real work getting done. Not > to mention the permanent things like further tightening of firewalls, > packet shaping, and ever more blocked ports - which we'll be dealing > with forever. It's not like he invented P2P, he just screwed it up far > worse then anyone else did. And yet the net's doing just fine, with Gnutella having spawned a thriving community of imitators, followup projects, and a number of profitable or at least breakeven companies. Hundreds of thousands of people use "Gnutella" software every day, while tens of millions use its close cousins. The very idea of an sharing network without central points of control -- an idea introduced to most people via the Gnutella experiment, even though it predates Gnutella -- continues to be a powerful social and economic force, and has recently won some measure of judicially- confirmed legality. What's happened lately with your throwaway hacks of March 2000? And to address some of your troglodytic normative assumptions: - if a network isn't clogged, that network is being wasted - if sysadmins aren't annoyed, you're being too meek - if you're not occasionally forgoing "real work" for other benefits, you're a drab automaton > Frankel is a horrible coder and a thief. Nothing more. How he managed > to avoid years in jail just shows how hopeless our legal system is. You want to lock up coders for how other people use their code? Will the secret magic turd you've been polishing all these years be impossible to use for illegal purposes? Our children will look back on laws granting toll-collecting monopolies over information as barbaric. Your viewpoint will be as appealing to them as the historical arguments for burning heretics at the stake. > So explain exactly how he's a good guy again? He creates. He releases. People understand his stuff and it grows over time to make a lot of people happy. And he doesn't endlessly shit all over everyone and everything else. That's a Good Guy. - Gordon From joe at barrera.org Wed Jun 4 21:55:19 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: Rogue AOL Subsidiary Leader to Resign In-Reply-To: <092801c32b15$84747c80$0a0a000a@golden> References: <092801c32b15$84747c80$0a0a000a@golden> Message-ID: <3EDEBF27.1080806@barrera.org> Gordon Mohr wrote: > Will the secret magic turd you've been polishing all these > years be impossible to use for illegal purposes? That's the funniest thing I've read all week! - Joe :-) -- The Combatant State is your father and your mother, your only protector, the totality of your interests. No discipline can be stern enough for the man who denies that by word or deed. From gojomo at usa.net Wed Jun 4 22:36:52 2003 From: gojomo at usa.net (Gordon Mohr) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: No bunkers, but we've got rovers References: <3EDE784F.6020805@cse.ucsc.edu> Message-ID: <095301c32b1c$16d03b90$0a0a000a@golden> Hmm. I wonder if NASA had to pay a licensing fee, or perhaps if Warner Brothers paid NASA a placement fee? IMO, the second option would make a lot more sense. - Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elias Sinderson" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 3:53 PM Subject: Re: No bunkers, but we've got rovers > Almost nothing at all to do with the current thread, and I generally > agree wholeheartedly with your analysis, but... > > Jeff Bone wrote: > > > [...] Europe's sending robots to Mars while we can't even [...] > > I'll be attending the MER launch party this Sunday - we'll be sending up > the first of two rovers aimed for the red planet. The second rover is > scheduled be launched later this month. FYI, the MER mission patch > designs were recently released, you can have a look for yourself at > ... Quite amusing, > if I do say so myself. :-) > > > Elias > > From elias at cse.ucsc.edu Thu Jun 5 01:35:09 2003 From: elias at cse.ucsc.edu (Elias Sinderson) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: Wolfowitz: Iraq war was about oil (fwd) References: <1B0A7FF9-96CA-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> Message-ID: <3EDEF2AD.4080209@cse.ucsc.edu> Jeff Bone wrote: > On Wednesday, Jun 4, 2003, at 15:00 US/Central, James Rogers wrote: > >> In defense of Wolfowitz (don't see that every day), the Vanity >> Fair story >> (which I posted a reference to a couple days ago) and other >> stories like the >> above do not give an accurate impression of what Wolfowitz >> actually said > > So what did Wolfowitz actually say, James? I think the following is the transcript referred to. FoRK'd from It appears to me that 'Wolfie' was somewhat misquoted by the other coverage, however he's still a maniac and I don't trust him any further than... oh, wait, I don't even trust him that much. :-) If all you're interested in is the 'sea of oil' bit, it's about half way down - I marked the passage with ***. Elias ________________________________ Presenter: Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz Saturday, May 31, 2003 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz Q&A following IISS Asia Security Conference (Q&A session following remarks at the IISS Asia Security Conference in Singapore. Also participating were Sen. Jack Reed and Sen. Charles Hagel.) Q: I would just like to focus on North Korea. You rightfully said that North Korean has got to go through a fundamental change in the way in which it governs itself. Do you think North Korea is capable of making that change itself? I am very skeptical about that and think some strong external force might be necessary to achieve regime change and then let things settle down with a major role being played by the South Koreans. Wolfowitz: I'm tempted to ask you exactly what you have in mind. (Laughter.) I think given all the factors involved, including not only the slightly different perspectives of all the major countries in the region that Senior Minster Lee spoke about last night, but also the enormous danger that any contemplation of military force is fraught within the peninsula. I think a slower and more patient approach than I am hearing you suggest may be what's necessary. I agree that challenge is enormous, and you ask are they capable of making that kind of change. I think the task is to persuade them, to persuade their leadership really, that the only way to avoid regime change brought about by internal collapse is to in fact have the kind of policy change -- fundamental policy change -- that Deng Xiao Ping led in China. It's not a really mystery. It can be done. It has been done. It certainly requires a regime that is willing to make enormous departures from the past, to admit that the huge investment that's made in military resources for example is unnecessary. But I think it is possible both to present this regime with the fact that it's the only real alternative it has, and also I think working cooperatively to convince it that if it does take that path, it can do so with not only some safety but with some enormous help and benefit accruing. Q: I would like Paul and Jack Reed also who dealt with North Korea issue in his comments to reconcile two times scale on the North Korean problem. We have been talking about the long-term project getting this rather odd place to reform and I think Paul Wolfowitz is just right on that score. However, the nuclear problem is unfolding on a much more rapid scale, and so we have a question what to do about an imminent threat to our security that is unfolding now, and a prospect of reform or even collapse that is not imminent but years in the future. And so I think all this discussion of what ultimately happens with North Korea still begs the question what do we do now about nuclear weapons in North Korea. I wonder if both of those gentlemen would address the near term problem rather than the long-term problem. Wolfowitz: There clearly is the problem that you refer to. I think the fact is the further the North Koreans go down the road they're marching, the further they're going to have to march back eventually. That is a fact that they need to face, and I think it is a fact that we need to face that I referred to in my remarks that the greatest danger posed in that regard is the danger of export. Fortunately they have just lost one potential customer in Baghdad and I think there are things we can do to limit the market elsewhere, and not perfectly, but the more cooperation we have the more we can do that successfully. I think that's important. But recognizing the time scale problem you referred to, I am not really sure I see a solution. It's not a case of "don't just stand there, do something". The question is what are you going to do. Military action isn't going to solve that short-term problem and large-scale bribery I don't think is going to solve that short-term problem. So I am open to ideas, but it seems to me that it is a case that requires a certain amount of long-term Asian patience. But I also believe that the more quickly we can really achieve that consensus among the major northeast Asian powers on what is the way out and the only way out for North Korea, the more quickly we may be able to get them to confront reality. Reed: Well I think because time is of the essence for this particular problem and I agree with Paul that the real problem as I see it is the diversion of this fissile material to terrorists or other states, is that we do have to try to engage as quickly as possible with some type of negotiation. That first requires negotiating among the regional powers -- China, South Korea, Russia, Japan -- to come with a concerted effort to try to deal with the issue and again as I try to suggest in my remarks, that the essence of any negotiation is understanding you have to give to gain. That's a threshold we have to cross first. If we're unwilling to cross that then we'll be paralyzed because we won't do anything. And I would suggest that the prospects of the satisfactory resolution are difficult to calculate, but without this process I think we won't have either the legitimacy or the confidence to go forward with perhaps more robust coercive measures which might, I regret to say, but might someday be necessary. Q: There has been a lot of talk in the last few weeks of redeployment or force reductions of American forces both in East Asia and Europe. To what extent will those force levels or deployments be affected by the implications of the post-war U.S. force presence in Iraq? If you are going to keep let's say 100,000 or 150,000 folks in Iraq and if you obviously you have to rotate people in and out. Out of a 1.4 million force structure, that is going to be a very heavy burden for the U.S. military. So the question really is to what extent will be the U.S. forces engagement in Iraq drive U.S. policy in East Asia and Europe in terms of force deployments there, and are you considering increasing the overall U.S. force structure in order to cope with the exigencies of keeping a fairly large military presence in Iraq? Wolfowitz: I think it's much too early to say what our longer term or even relatively short term military presence is going to have to be in Iraq let's say a year from now which is no time at all in terms of the kind of military plans we undertake. As I mentioned that my comments, we are still fighting an enemy. And when that when is defeated -- and it will be defeated -- presumably the force requirements will change substantially. How substantially is hard to say. But until that task is accomplished we need a lot of capability there and you correctly point out it is a substantial requirement on our forces. But the re-look at our defense posture is something we had in mind before the war even began. It is not driven primarily by -- in fact, I would say it's not really driven at all by considerations of what are our requirements will be in Iraq. At some point we'll have to factor that in. But it is driven most of all by the sense that, as I said, first, the threat has changed. The need to respond on rapid basis in places that are quite unpredictable is dramatic. If we had ever gone to the Congress in the summer of 2001 and said we needed a special appropriation to build an airbase in Karsi Kanabad (ph), we would have first all gotten out the maps to find out what country it was in, and then we'd have to explain what on earth we were doing planning to fight a war in Afghanistan. The nature at least of this global war on terrorism suggests a need to be able to deploy relatively small forces but extremely quickly in unpredictable parts of the world. The second major change -- and it really is just enormous -- is our ability as demonstrated to mount an effective force from a considerable distance and with considerably less mass and assume from the past means that you can from a technical point of view have much greater effectiveness with a very different kind of force posture. It's a little strange at times I think that we still sometimes measure our level of commitment and capability in terms of the number of human beings that are put to the task when in fact it is the output of those human beings which has been multiplied exponentially that really should be what we look at. Q: There is always a tendency in conferences like this to deal on the immediate problems and to talk -- we've done that with North Korea and the Middle East. But I would like to give all three panelists an opportunity to comment on some of the underlying challenges and opportunities we face in the Asia-Pacific. And what I'm thinking of specifically are the two giants that have not been discussed much so far, China and India. So I'd be interested if Paul can give us the assessment of where does China fit into the U.S. strategy towards the Asia Pacific on the security side. And of course there has been a dramatic change for the better on your watch on the U.S. relationship with India, especially on the security side, so I think some comments there would be welcomed as well as what is the Congress sees on these two issues. Wolfowitz: Well first of all you are absolutely right to point to the important of these two countries. I think the relationship between them, and between them and the rest of us, is going to perhaps be the single greatest factor shaping the future in this region. And in that regard I would say on the whole I remain relatively optimistic that China is going to continue with a focus on internal modernization. That process of modernization I think is going to increase the internal pressures in China to maintain a peaceful orientation toward the rest of the region. But I think it is important that we both engage China and at the same time make sure that China understands that the region as a whole is going to insist on peaceful behavior. And I think that the importance of India is just enormous. I think in fact the improvements actually began to be fair in the last administration and they've been continued strongly in this one. I think that as much as one would like to not have this be true, it remains the fact that our relationship with India seems to constantly have the conflict with Pakistan keep emerging as major part of it. I'm happy to say in that regard I think progress has been made between those two countries in the last few months and clearly that will be a big contribution to the peace in the whole region if that can be advanced. In the meantime in any case our bilateral relationship with India in its own right is enormously important both in the defense relationship but also more broadly in the economic and technology relationship, and I think it is important to make sure that we approach India in a larger context and not have them feel that they're simply an appendage of a disagreement with Pakistan. Hagel: Stanley you know the region well and you know a great deal about both nations and their challenges. Building on what Secretary Wolfowitz said, I would suggest that the two most populous nations in the world are primarily focused, because they must be primarily focused, on a sense of stability and security in their nations and in their regions in order to continue to focus on improving the lives of the people. That's economic development, that's addressing poverty and (Inaudible.) and all these large challenges that these governments face. These immense populations -- obviously each of these two nations is somewhat captive to their own unique dynamics -- Paul referenced the India-Pakistan issue which we know is very much about Kashmir and until that issue is resolved then we are going to have conflict. China has other issues. We still have the Taiwan issue, although I think we are making progress there. But overall even though those two great nations have their own unique individual challenges and dynamics, they are not unlike every nation on earth -- it is security, stability and improving the lives of their people. And for the future of United States' relationships with those countries and for the regions of the world that are all affected, especially this region, by those relationships. It is critically important that we all have a relationship that in fact helps us make us partners with China and India as they develop their nations. So I believe this administration, previous administration's, policies toward China and India have generally been the right policies, the right focus. I certainly cannot speak for my colleagues in the Congress. I have enough difficulty trying to articulate my own thoughts, when I have them. But the Congress it seems to me is generally aware of and calibrated onto the right frequencies here understanding completely that the United States' interest in the world and our future interests in the world are very much connected to stability and security in the future in India and China. As I look ahead on the long term with respect to China and India, two issues jump out. One is energy and the other demographics. We are encouraging both countries to emerge even more so as consumer economies with stronger middle classes. That would usually imply significant increases in energy consumption and I think we should at this point recognize that in the years ahead the contests for energy could be more defining than ideological contests that have taken place in the past. And it should prompt us to be more attentive to issues of conservation and alternative fuels and frankly I don't think we are doing enough to in our Congressional activities to do that. And then as Chuck referred to the issue of demographics -- the huge increase in populations that could result in particular the case of China. My limited knowledge -- the creation of a cohort of very young men without a comparable number of young women from the 18 to 25, which could be a potential social difficulty there. So those are the big issues that I see. Q: Sorry to come back to North Korea, but it seems that Russia, Japan, China, the U.S. and South Korea essentially agree on one thing only, and that is to prevent the invention of a repugnant and unpredictable regime which has outlawed weapons programs including chemical and biological as well as nuclear. Now maybe this is prudent, and maybe given the dangers that North Korea poses there's no choice. But isn't the message of this that essentially non-proliferation is a dead letter, but is the result of Iraq's ability to defy the U.N. for twelve years. And isn't that the last impression that the United States would wish to give to other countries such as for example Iran? Wolfowitz: I am afraid that I don't understand the premise of the question. It seems to be that non-proliferation is not a dead letter at all and in fact the implication of preventing the implosion of North Korea is that they are on a course that is going to lead to that implosion unless they change and that change requires both giving up their own nuclear program in the second instance, but in the first instance not exporting it. No, I think the North Korean nuclear problem is front and center on our agenda and if they want to save themselves from the dead end they are going down, I think they have to address our concerns. I think that's fairly clear. Q: What I meant is that essentially North Korea is being taken more seriously because it has become a nuclear power by its own admission, whether or not that's true, and that the lesson that people will have is that in the case of Iraq it became imperative to confront Iraq militarily because it had banned weapons systems and posed a danger to the region. In the case of North Korea, which has nuclear weapons as well as other banned weapons of mass destruction, apparently it is imperative not to confront, to persuade and to essentially maintain a regime that is just as appalling as the Iraqi regime in place, for the sake of the stability of the region. To other countries of the world this is a very mixed message to be sending out. Wolfowitz: The concern about implosion is not primarily at all a matter of the weapons that North Korea has, but a fear particularly by South Korea and also to some extent China of what the larger implications are for them of having 20 million people on their borders in a state of potential collapse and anarchy. It's is also a question of whether, if one wants to persuade the regime to change, whether you have to find -- and I think you do -- some kind of outcome that is acceptable to them. But that outcome has to be acceptable to us, and it has to include meeting our non-proliferation goals. *** Look, the primarily difference -- to put it a little too simply -- between North Korea and Iraq is that we had virtually no economic options with Iraq because the country floats on a sea of oil. In the case of North Korea, the country is teetering on the edge of economic collapse and that I believe is a major point of leverage whereas the military picture with North Korea is very different from that with Iraq. The problems in both cases have some similarities but the solutions have got to be tailored to the circumstances which are very different. Q: Paul, let me just bring you back to an issue on cross-Strait issues. When you came to power there was a sense of very real concern about military dynamics across the Taiwan Straits. Now, there has not been as much said about this so it would be useful if you would just give us an update about how those military issues have developed over the last couple of years. And secondly, you give us a very I think impressive overview of our relationship with our allies in the region but you didn't say very much about Thailand. So I would like to give you an opportunity to give us a sense about how that relationship has developed as well. Wolfowitz: I didn't get much chance to say anything about Russia either, so since you gave me an opening let me say I think if you are looking at security problems in the Asia Pacific region, that vacuum that's potentially created by the weakness in the Russian Far East ought to be at the top of an the agenda of any conference like this one. Our relationship with Thailand has been a very good one. They have been a good partner in the war on terrorism. They have, as you probably know a significant Muslim population in their south. We know that terrorists have used Thailand as a launching pad. I suppose -- thanks to letting me comment, because I don't want our Thai friends to feel left out -- it's one of those cases where things are going well and you don't need to mention them. I think on the whole that we remain concerned about the Chinese military build-up on their side of the Taiwan Strait. I still believe that the basic framework that has got to work there is the framework of a One China policy where neither side takes unilateral action to change the status. But the emphasis got to be on long term patience aiming ultimately at some peaceful resolution, but most important thing I think is to preserving peace, and I think that message has gotten through to the Chinese leadership maybe a little better than it had before. And clearly both China and Taiwan have enormous problems of their own to worry about without focusing too much on the differences between them. Q: I would like to raise a question really about the imperatives for adapting the United States and allied military frameworks and positioning in this theater, and the possibility that we really may be facing a serious communication issue here, a communication issue with our domestic publics and in fact broader across the region. It seems to me that the logic of adapting U.S. and allied positioning and frameworks in this region is really quite compelling. We are talking about much more networked leader; we are talking much more long-range capabilities, much higher mobility. There are opportunities for doing things really rather differently to the way than we have been able to do them hitherto. But it seems to me that the logic of these opportunities -- the opportunities for reconfiguration -- raise some pretty serious questions that are in some areas of the region in particular somewhat sensitive politically. I wonder whether you think we are adequately preparing our publics for the possibility of some significant modifications in our approaches here. Are we doing enough in particular to explain the complexities of some of these changes, because the public generally I don't think understand really what networking the theater and what these enhanced mobility options really provide, and the possibility that we might be facing a situation of encouraging perceptions in the region if we don't do a very effective job in explaining the changes that may be in mind. Wolfowitz: I think it is a fair point. It's a reason why we are a long way from making decisions because part of the process of consultation is the process of helping to educate the publics both directly and indirectly by getting broader understanding with governments. I recall back in 1991 when we first contemplated withdrawing our tactical nuclear weapons from South Korea for a number of reasons including the fact that we wanted to open the way to that agreement that came next year on de-nuclearizing the peninsula and it was a pretty hard to have it and we were going to have our own nuclear weapons there. It was initially viewed with a certain amount of shock and horror by our South Korean allies. We went through months of very intensive consultations, talked about why we thought it would be a basically a stabilizing move. I can't say that they were 100 percent persuaded, but they were close enough that went opportunity for major changes in our whole worldwide posture emerged in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union, it was a logical thing to proceed with and we were prepared and ready to do it. But you have to prepare the ground. I think a similar example was the earlier exercise conducted under the rubric of the Nunn-Warner legislation that required us to work jointly with the Japanese and the South Koreans to produce a long term projection for the U.S. posture in the region and that set up a framework in which people were able to think about changes in the U.S. posture as something other than the unilateral withdrawals of the late 1970s that had caused such shock effects in the region. I think we need to go through a kind of similar process of both official and public discussion now, and the most important message to get across is that we can be much more effective with a very different kind of force posture. It's not our commitments that change, but the way that we carry them out. I think we can get to that point but you don't get there overnight. I notice there has been a lot of press speculation about some of these possible changes, and while in a certain sense of the fundamental point is accurate or not very different from what I just said, quite a few of the specifics -- I mean, maybe somebody down at the eighth level in the bureaucracy has dreamed up the idea of moving all our forces from Okinawa to Australia, but I can assure you that's not going to happen. Maybe some of these stories are good because it will turn out we are doing a lot less than people fear, but it takes time I think to calm things down and understand and get a sense of proportion here. But change is necessary. Change will help us in the long run to sustain the commitments that everyone I think wants us to be able to sustain. Q: I would like to pose a question to you which gets back to the Korea issue and goes into a little bit more detail. I was interested, and I must say, rather heartened, by the positive tone of your comments about the possibility for a negotiated outcome there and I certainly agree with you how important that is that it be a multilateral process. It does seem to me though that it is still pretty tough and the heart of that task is going to be verification. The North Koreans have raised the bar pretty high but would count is adequate verification of de-nuclearization as part of such a deal, and I guess one thing that worries me about the prospects for a successful outcome is whether or not the U.S. or for that matter, the rest of us who have a key interest in the elimination of the nuclear threat on the Korean peninsular. Whether we could possibly reach a verification regime that would satisfy our concerns. It seems it would need to be qualitatively more intrusive than any verification regime that's been reached before and although I'm sure you don't want to start the negotiations with the North Koreans in the privacy of this room, I'd be very interested if you'd give us some hint as to what kind of solution to the verification problem do you think might be acceptable to the U.S. Wolfowitz: I think for the reasons you alluded to plus the fact that I'm not here to start negotiations in any form, public or private, I don't think that's appropriate. But I think the basic point, I think in some ways we may be more successful ultimately if the bar is set high both in terms of what we expect of them and in terms of what we as a group are prepared to deliver. But it needs to be understood also, and this is I think why the multilateral approach is so essential that the countries of the region that are helping to keep North Korea afloat need to send a message to North Korea that they're not going to continue doing that if North Korea continues down the road its on. Most of that help does not come from the U.S.; it comes from other countries and that's why a multilateral approach I think is essential. Q: I want to go back to the question of the U.S. force presence in the Asia Pacific region. In my eyes the U.S. force presence in the Asia Pacific region has at least three important policy values. Of course one is to demonstrate your commitment to the security of this region or the security of your allies most particularly. And the secondary, U.S. force presence is politically stabilizing for the Asia Pacific region which is very important for your own security. And third, I think it's a good for America to familiarize themselves or American force people and other to familiarize themselves with the regional situations. I think too much dependence upon the mechanical mobility precision might undercut these policy values. I know that you are not talking about the possibility of total withdrawal but still these three points, policy values which I mentioned would be a very important for the U.S. and I hope that you take into account when you consider the future force posture. Thank you. I'm sorry; it's my observation rather than a question. Wolfowitz: It's a valid observation. I take the point. But if you stop and think about it also there are certain things that we do for example, most of our troops in Korea go there on one-year unaccompanied tours. If you stop and think about it it's an unbelievably onerous burden on the individuals and it ripples throughout the Army for years afterwards because it affects the ability to deploy those same individuals in other instances. We've been doing it for years. You have to ask the question, is there a better way to do that; is there a better way to achieve exactly the values that you're talking about because it isn't at clear to me to that we get a better understanding with our allies because of that. Particularly I would say somewhat an anachronistic way of doing force deployments. Don't infer from that we're about to change it, but I think it is an example of where we need to look at things we've been doing, recognizing there are more values than just as you correctly say the mechanical ability to deliver forces in the region. The interactions are enormously important but I think if you think about one of the concepts which has been out there a great deal which is the idea of more flexible deployments instead of permanent bases, the idea in the case of Europe of being able to rotate troops around Europe, instead of, I think it was one general's phrase, creating "little Americas" in Europe. We get much more effective interaction with our allies by rotational deployments than by building small American cities that are self-contained and isolated, so even from the point of view of that particular value change could be positive. Q: I would like to join those thanking Paul Wolfowitz for his magisterial survey of the whole area. I'm thanking both Senators for their invaluable contributions. I would also like to thank Paul for his personal role in galvanizing the U.S. to deal with the particularly nasty regime in Iraq which we all for long recognized as a threat and for too long hesitated to deal with. Paul, when you get back to the Pentagon, you can add to the list of options for dealing with N. Korea on the basis of this morning's discussing it to death, but I want to take you back to the Middle East because I think we all agree that that is the cockpit of many of the security issues which will also affect Asia, and I would like to take up two points from your presentation. One is, one outcome we all hope for from the successful war against Iraq is that it sends a very powerful message to other regimes in the region about what is no longer permissible in terms of support for terrorism and for weapons of mass destruction. Do you sense that message is being sufficiently heard already, by Iran, by Syria, even by Libya? One could point perhaps to some positive developments in Syria are closing down offices of terrorist organizations. Do you think further a rhetorical assault on Iran and Syria is sufficient or do you sense that in due course more concrete action against them would be needed? Secondly, and allied to that, it does seem to me that one great strength of the military action against Iraq was it was certain the context of a broader and rather noble strategy for changing the Middle East, but a strategy which also has dangers because change does involve destabilizing existing regimes. How do you think that strategy might play out over the next year or two or indeed possibly over the lifetime of a second Bush administration? Wolfowitz: That's a big question. Your question reminds me of the observation that the President made a giant roll of the dice as though this was a very risky alternative that he chose, and I admit freely there are large risks and there aren't ended by the long risks that we've avoided so far that I read out. The risks are very large still, and I think when I say the stakes are large in Iraq, they're large on the positive side and if we succeed I think they're large on the negative side if we fail but the notion that it would not have been a large throw of the dice to go for another 12 years of this hideous containment policy in Iraq which if you stop and read bin Laden's fatwah was one of the major sources of his rhetoric and his grievance against the West and a major burden for Saudi Arabia. It's not as though there was risk-free course of action here. I think that the countries you mentioned still have a lot of change they need to make and I think they're more likely headed in that direction since the fall of the Saddam regime than they were before but there aren't silver bullets here and problems don't get solved automatically overnight. I do think that in the case of Iran one of the major impetuses for change, and there's a lot of change we'd like to see, particularly in a nuclear program and in their support for terrorists including what we believe is their inadequate dealing with al Qaeda people in their territory, a major impetus for change is the pressure they feel from their own people and in that regard I think one of the most effective things we can do to increase that pressure is to be successful in Iraq. To have Iraq be a demonstration for the Iranian people then in fact it is possible to have a free country in which their honorable religion is also respected and indeed I think, I'm no expert on Shi'ite theology, I think there's some reason to believe the Shi'ite schools in Iraq have a very different view of the relationship between religion and politics than the prevailing view in Tehran and certainly believe themselves to be the more authoritative version, so I think it's not a bad idea at this stage for us to focus on trying to get Iraq right, recognizing that there's some problems elsewhere. I think what you also allude to is the question of how much change can our friends in the region endure without ending up in the kind of catastrophic change that they constantly terrify us with. I think too often -- I don't underestimate the threat from Islamic extremism -- but I think too often some of our friends either use it as an excuse for everything they do, the jailing of (Inaudible.) who was one of the great liberals in Egypt certainly didn't advance the course against the Islamic threat in Egypt. Happily he's now been released and that's a step forward. I think our Saudi friends have made this mistake in the past. Sometimes if they can make extremism someone else's problem, they can avoid it being their problem, and I think the wake up call that they got in Riyadh is that it's their problem as well and hopefully they're going to turn to dealing with it more effectively and I think Crown Prince Abdullah seems to have better credentials than some of his predecessors for facing that threat because I think his own reputation for integrity is pretty strong and I think it's going to stand in a good stead. But change is risky. My own preference in spite of some reports to the contrary, is that evolutionary change is much better than revolutionary change. If I take one of my favorite countries, Indonesia, there's no question in my mind that if Suharto had gone down a different path in the late 80s and early 90s, and promoted reform instead of the opposite, that Indonesia might be in much better shape today than he left it. It's a sad commentary that like some CEOs he just stayed a bit too long and kept his cronies too close to him instead of broadening his base and preparing his succession. http://dod.mil/transcripts/2003/tr20030531-depsecdef0246.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lair.xent.com/pipermail/fork/attachments/20030605/25aec4e8/attachment.htm From elias at cse.ucsc.edu Thu Jun 5 01:41:03 2003 From: elias at cse.ucsc.edu (Elias Sinderson) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: No bunkers, but we've got rovers References: <3EDE784F.6020805@cse.ucsc.edu> <095301c32b1c$16d03b90$0a0a000a@golden> Message-ID: <3EDEF40F.7010103@cse.ucsc.edu> The money flowed from NASA to Warner Bros. Consumer Products (you think they would have it any other way?). BTW, I think I'll be able to get a few extra patches, let me know in a private email if interested, I'm not sure how widely they'll be available. Elias Gordon Mohr wrote: >Hmm. I wonder if NASA had to pay a licensing fee, or perhaps >if Warner Brothers paid NASA a placement fee? > >IMO, the second option would make a lot more sense. > >- Gordon > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Elias Sinderson" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 3:53 PM >Subject: Re: No bunkers, but we've got rovers > > > > >>Almost nothing at all to do with the current thread, and I generally >>agree wholeheartedly with your analysis, but... >> >>Jeff Bone wrote: >> >> >> >>>[...] Europe's sending robots to Mars while we can't even [...] >>> >>> >>I'll be attending the MER launch party this Sunday - we'll be sending up >>the first of two rovers aimed for the red planet. The second rover is >>scheduled be launched later this month. FYI, the MER mission patch >>designs were recently released, you can have a look for yourself at >>... Quite amusing, >>if I do say so myself. :-) >> >> >>Elias >> >> >> >> From joe at barrera.org Thu Jun 5 08:15:36 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: Swimming in context Message-ID: <3EDF5088.3080304@barrera.org> ------ Forwarded Message From: Jamie McCarthy Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 08:16:23 -0400 To: dave@farber.net, ip@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: Swimming in oil And, the followup. Here's an angry debunking of the Guardian story: http://www.chronwatch.com/editorial/contentDisplay.asp?aid=2971 Asked why a nuclear power such as North Korea was being treated differently from Iraq, where hardly any weapons of mass destruction had been found, the deputy defence minister said: "Let's look at it simply. The most important difference between North Korea and Iraq is that economically, we just had no choice in Iraq. The country swims on a sea of oil." But this quote is inaccurate on its face as well as taken completely out of context. Wolfowitz was answering a query regarding why the U.S. thought using economic pressure would work with respect to North Korea and not with regard to Iraq: "The United States hopes to end the nuclear standoff with North Korea by putting economic pressure on the impoverished nation, U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz said Saturday. North Korea would respond to economic pressure, unlike Iraq, where military action was necessary because the country's oil money was propping up the regime, Wolfowitz told delegates at the second annual Asia Security Conference in Singapore." "The country is teetering on the edge of economic collapse," Wolfowitz said. "That I believe is a major point of leverage." "The primary difference between North Korea and Iraq is that we had virtually *no economic options* in Iraq because the country floats on a sea of oil," he said. Wolfowitz did not elaborate on how Washington intends to put economic pressure on North Korea, but said other countries in the region helping it should send a message that "they're not going to continue doing that if North Korea continues down the road it's on." [my emphasis] Here's what seems to be the official transcript: http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2003/tr20030531-depsecdef0246.html Q: Sorry to come back to North Korea, but it seems that Russia, Japan, China, the U.S. and South Korea essentially agree on one thing only, and that is to prevent the invention of a repugnant and unpredictable regime which has outlawed weapons programs including chemical and biological as well as nuclear. Now maybe this is prudent, and maybe given the dangers that North Korea poses there's no choice. But isn't the message of this that essentially non-proliferation is a dead letter, but is the result of Iraq's ability to defy the U.N. for twelve years. And isn't that the last impression that the United States would wish to give to other countries such as for example Iran? Wolfowitz: I am afraid that I don't understand the premise of the question. It seems to be that non-proliferation is not a dead letter at all and in fact the implication of preventing the implosion of North Korea is that they are on a course that is going to lead to that implosion unless they change and that change requires both giving up their own nuclear program in the second instance, but in the first instance not exporting it. No, I think the North Korean nuclear problem is front and center on our agenda and if they want to save themselves from the dead end they are going down, I think they have to address our concerns. I think that's fairly clear. Q: What I meant is that essentially North Korea is being taken more seriously because it has become a nuclear power by its own admission, whether or not that's true, and that the lesson that people will have is that in the case of Iraq it became imperative to confront Iraq militarily because it had banned weapons systems and posed a danger to the region. In the case of North Korea, which has nuclear weapons as well as other banned weapons of mass destruction, apparently it is imperative not to confront, to persuade and to essentially maintain a regime that is just as appalling as the Iraqi regime in place, for the sake of the stability of the region. To other countries of the world this is a very mixed message to be sending out. Wolfowitz: The concern about implosion is not primarily at all a matter of the weapons that North Korea has, but a fear particularly by South Korea and also to some extent China of what the larger implications are for them of having 20 million people on their borders in a state of potential collapse and anarchy. It's is also a question of whether, if one wants to persuade the regime to change, whether you have to find -- and I think you do -- some kind of outcome that is acceptable to them. But that outcome has to be acceptable to us, and it has to include meeting our non-proliferation goals. Look, the primarily difference -- to put it a little too simply -- between North Korea and Iraq is that we had virtually no economic options with Iraq because the country floats on a sea of oil. In the case of North Korea, the country is teetering on the edge of economic collapse and that I believe is a major point of leverage whereas the military picture with North Korea is very different from that with Iraq. The problems in both cases have some similarities but the solutions have got to be tailored to the circumstances which are very different. ------ End of Forwarded Message ------------------------------------- You are subscribed as joe@barrera.org To manage your subscription, go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ -- The Combatant State is your father and your mother, your only protector, the totality of your interests. No discipline can be stern enough for the man who denies that by word or deed. From geege at barrera.org Thu Jun 5 12:04:10 2003 From: geege at barrera.org (geege@barrera.org) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: NYTimes.com Article: Dear Darpa Diary Message-ID: <20030605150410.03471848E@web39t.prvt.nytimes.com> This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by geege@barrera.org. just wanted my name linked with darpa again - ESPECIALLY under the topic of "terrorist." gg geege@barrera.org /-------------------- advertisement -----------------------\ Explore more of Starbucks at Starbucks.com. http://www.starbucks.com/default.asp?ci=1015 \----------------------------------------------------------/ Dear Darpa Diary June 5, 2003 By WILLIAM SAFIRE WASHINGTON Unless you work for the government or the Mafia, it's a great idea to keep a diary. I don't mean the minute-by-minute log that Florida Senator Bob Graham keeps in tidy, color-coded notebooks describing his clothes, meals and haircuts. That echoes the mythical Greek Narcissus. Rather, I have in mind the brief notation of the day's highlight, the amusing encounter or useful insight that will someday evoke a memory of yourself when young. Such a journal entry - perhaps an e-mail to your encoded personal file - can now be supplemented by scanned-in articles, poems or pictures to create a "commonplace book." You will then have a private memory-jogger and resource for reminiscence at family gatherings. But beware too much of a good thing. The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, or Darpa, stimulates outside-the-box thinking that has given us the Internet and the stealth bomber. On occasion, however, Darpa goes off half-cocked. Its Total (now Terrorist) Information Awareness plan - to combine all commercial credit data and individual bank and academic records with F.B.I. and C.I.A. dossiers, which would have made every American's life an open book - has been reined in somewhat by Congress after we privacy nuts hollered to high heaven. Comes now LifeLog, the all-remembering cyberdiary. Do you know those hand-held personal digital assistants that remind you of appointments, store phone numbers and birthdays, tip you off to foibles of friends and vulnerabilities of enemies, and keep desperate global executives in unremitting touch day and night? Forget about 'em - those wireless whiz-bangs are already yestertech. Darpa's LifeLog initiative is part of its "cognitive computing" research. The goal is to teach your computer to learn by your experience, so that what has been your digital assistant will morph into your lifelong partner in memory. Darpa is sprinkling around $7.3 million in research contracts (a drop in its $2.7 billion budget) to develop PAL, the Perceptive Assistant that Learns. For those who suspect that I am dreaming this up, get that lumbering old machine in your back pocket to access www.darpa.mil/ipto, and then click on "research areas" and then "LifeLog." You are then in a world light-years beyond the Matrix into virtual Graham-land. "To build a cognitive computing system," says proto-PAL, "a user must store, retrieve and understand data about his or her past experiences. This entails collecting diverse data. . . . The research will determine the types of data to collect and when to collect it." This diverse data can include everything you ("the user") see, smell, taste, touch and hear every day of your life. But wouldn't the ubiquitous partner be embarrassing at times? Relax, says the program description, presumably written by Dr. Doug Gage, who didn't answer my calls, e-mails or frantic telepathy. "The goal of the data collection is to `see what I see' rather than to `see me.' Users are in complete control of their own data-collection efforts, decide when to turn the sensors on or off and decide who will share the data." That's just dandy for the personal privacy of the "user," who would be led to believe he controlled the only copy of his infinitely detailed profile. But what about the "use-ee" - the person that PAL's user is looking at, listening to, sniffing or conspiring with to blow up the world? The human user may have opt-in control of the wireless wire he is secretly wearing, but all the people who come in contact with PAL and its willing user-spy would be ill-used without their knowledge. Result: Everybody would be snooping on everybody else, taping and sharing that data with the government and the last media conglomerate left standing. And in the basement of the Pentagon, LifeLog's Dr. Gage and his PAL, the totally aware Admiral Poindexter, would be dumping all this "voluntary" data into a national memory bank, which would have undeniable recall of everything you would just as soon forget. Followers of Ned Ludd, who in 1799 famously destroyed two nefarious machines knitting hosiery, hope that Congress will ask: is the computer our servant or our partner? Are diaries personal, or does the Pentagon have a right to LifeLog? And so, as the diarist Samuel Pepys liked to conclude, to bed.   http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/05/opinion/05SAFI.html?ex=1055825450&ei=1&en=62f62b0cd10d50bf --------------------------------- Get Home Delivery of The New York Times Newspaper. Imagine reading The New York Times any time & anywhere you like! Leisurely catch up on events & expand your horizons. Enjoy now for 50% off Home Delivery! Click here: http://www.nytimes.com/ads/nytcirc/index.html HOW TO ADVERTISE --------------------------------- For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help@nytimes.com. Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company From dl at silcom.com Thu Jun 5 11:02:26 2003 From: dl at silcom.com (Dave Long) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: Checkpointing number theory discussion / Ugh In-Reply-To: Message from Jeff Bone <4EF98F1D-96C0-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> Message-ID: <200306051702.KAA31105@maltesecat> > t'Hooft is leaning in favor of determinism at quantum scales these > days. s/quantum/planck/. As far as I read, 't Hooft (in theory) agrees with Bell (experiment), which would imply that prediction (on scales we'd care about) would remain stochastic. > The key, says 't Hooft, is information loss. At the smallest > conceivable size scale - the Planck Scale, many trillions of times > smaller than the nucleus of an atom - there exists complete > information about the world. > > This information gets lost very quickly, 't Hooft explains. By the > time we start trying to probe and measure a system, we are like > archaeologists trying to make sense of ancient Babylonia: we have only > the scantiest of information to go on. We can say only what the system > was probably like. > Information loss at the level of the underlying deterministic theory, > may also explain the apparent lack of causality in the usual attempts > to understand quantum mechanics in terms of hidden variables. ... > + Natures fundamental laws are defined at the Planck scale. At that > scale, all we have is bits of information. > + A large fraction of this information gets lost very quickly, but > it is being replenished by information entering from the boundaries. Rolling a die is a process which is deterministic at small scales -- but yet is called "random" when observed at the scales which we care about. -Dave :: :: :: > > It had better be a relatively short > > program with a very long input tape > > of random bits, then. > > Lots of assumptions, there. Before you can even make that kind of > assertion, you've got to have some well-formed ideas about randomness, > infinity, the concept 'universe,' and whether such a universe is finite > or infinite for various senses of all those words. If it's a relatively short program, it will have relatively short limit cycles, so if we think we observe relatively complex behavior "Garbage Out", then we need some data bits, "Garbage In". (light cones are a great source of new bits for the entropy pool. vide 't Hooft, supra) :: :: :: > And why should human brains > stop the normal evolution of the world per > the Schrodinger equation, and cause > instead a mystical wave collapse? ...because we've read far too much Capra?* As far as I'm concerned, a polarizer will "cause" wave collapse, with no need for a mystical "conscious observer". Keeping a superposition is one of the difficulties currently facing quantum computation. (the Schroedinger eq. is deterministic, but what happens when H changes, or some stray photon comes by? Measurement is naturally the former, and the latter can be difficult to avoid) Isn't many-worlds orthogonal to the problem of prediction? Any calculation that yields a single answer will turn out wrong in some of those many-worlds, right? * it's apparently not Penrose' fault: > A few days back I recall someone posting to sci.physics, saying > that Penrose thought that consciousness was what collapsed the > wavefunction. Someone else replied that no, Penrose believed that > it took the emission of one graviton to collapse the wavefunction > (roughly speaking). ... so walking to lunch yesterday I mentioned > this and asked him what *he* thought he believed. ... He cringed > at the notion of consciousness collapsing the wavefunction, saying > that a lot of people seemed to think that, and that they must not > have read his book. > > He said that he had come up with a better idea than the "one graviton" > notion. ... Also, he said that *most* wavefunction collapse was > due to quantum entanglement (correlation with the environment), > and that this new mechanism would only *supplement* that method, > hence only matter when the superposed system was quite isolated from > the environment. > > Somehow everything he said came across much more clearly as a tentative > exploration than when I read his book ... Perhaps this is just a > matter of how the printed word works. From deafbox at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 18:05:58 2003 From: deafbox at hotmail.com (Russell Turpin) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: Checkpointing number theory discussion / Ugh Message-ID: Dave Long: >Isn't many-worlds orthogonal to the problem >of prediction? .. Mostly, but not entirely. Wave collapse, if it occurs, is a physical phenomenon. If certain things (cats, computers, people) when interacting with quantum systems cause a wave collapse, that provides an experimental lever. David Deutsch has written some papers describing experiments -- at this point, purely gedanken -- that distinguish the MWI from the Copenhagen interpretation. These experiments currently are impractical, but they do show why it isn't quite correct to view MWI as purely an interpretation. (Yeah, yeah, I know: it is *called* the many worlds interpretation. When Everett and DeWitt formulated it, that's what they thought.) BTW, this really pushes the limits of my understanding of QM, and my explanation of it might be wrong in some regard. If you want to look up the references, Deutsch is the relevant author. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jbone at deepfile.com Thu Jun 5 13:43:08 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: Checkpointing number theory discussion / Ugh In-Reply-To: <200306051702.KAA31105@maltesecat> Message-ID: <2B3B686C-977D-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> On Thursday, Jun 5, 2003, at 12:02 US/Central, Dave Long wrote: BTW, s/quantum/Planck too easy. Could be Compton is the relevant scale. > Rolling a die is a process which is > deterministic at small scales -- but > yet is called "random" when observed > at the scales which we care about. And yet if it's deterministic at the smallest of scales, it's fundamentally deterministic. Our inability to perceive the determinism due to the scope and scale of the data and calculations involved, or due to the non-linear dynamics involved, does not imply or require some sort of fundamental, a priori randomness. >> Lots of assumptions, there. Before you can even make that kind of >> assertion, you've got to have some well-formed ideas about randomness, >> infinity, the concept 'universe,' and whether such a universe is >> finite >> or infinite for various senses of all those words. > > If it's a relatively short program, it will > have relatively short limit cycles, so if we > think we observe relatively complex behavior > "Garbage Out", then we need some data bits, > "Garbage In". Again, if there is a deterministic theory of quantum mechanics, there is perhaps no such need for garbage in. We should be careful not to assume that our inability to perceive the order in something implies a priori randomness --- it may merely require complex irreversible computations. And again, your original comment implicitly assumes some particular formulations of randomness, infinity, and universe. > As far as I'm concerned, a polarizer will > "cause" wave collapse, with no need for a > mystical "conscious observer". The polarizer is entangled with the system and itself exists in a superposition of states until an external measurement is made. That is the orthodox Copenhagen interpretation, anyway. I myself prefer to believe that consciousness plays no special role, but to do so and remain consistent then the only way clear seems to be many-worlds. And many-worlds is gaining converts for this very reason. It's also well-supported experimentally: Deutsche for example claims that the 2-slit experiment is prima facie evidence of many worlds (the photon takes *all* the paths.) Per quantum computing, it's very, very difficult to understand what's going on unless you assume many worlds. In both these cases and others, MWI has the Occam's razor advantage. MWI is somewhat objectionable because it seems so incredibly "wasteful" of phase space. But our aesthetic preferences about things like efficiency in space and time may just be that: aesthetic. Who's to say what resource constraints the engine of the universe operates under, if any? It seems far more "scientifically" justifiable to look for the smallest algorithms. And as Schmidhuber points out, it may be easier describe the computation of all possible universes than any single one. > Keeping a > superposition is one of the difficulties > currently facing quantum computation. Heh. Hasn't this been the case since, oh, 1926 or so? ;-) > (the Schroedinger eq. is deterministic, but > what happens when H changes, or some stray > photon comes by? Measurement is naturally > the former, and the latter can be difficult > to avoid) So you subscribe to the old school that the reactionaries (including Schroedinger himself, Planck, Einstein, and de Broglie) originally promoted re: Heisenburg Uncertainty --- that the act of measurement is necessarily a physical interference, and gives the particle a momentum "kick"? That's been mostly out of vogue since Born, Dirac, and von Neumann massaged QM into its currently accepted base form. Apparently, in order to avoid problems you must either assume (a) consciousness collapses the wave function, (b) MWI, (c) certain odd solipsistic notions, or (d) that the theory is just fundamentally wrong, somehow. > Isn't many-worlds orthogonal to the problem > of prediction? Any calculation that yields > a single answer will turn out wrong in some > of those many-worlds, right? Probably, although I've heard some mumblings about the idea that the split due to certain quantum events (such as a computation) might in some cases reconfigure the various children in order to make them consistent with the various states of the event. That's a weird thought, sort of reminiscent of the typical "river flowing around a rock" time travel stories, the kind where Lee Harvey Oswald's assassination attempt is prevented so Jack Ruby ends up killing JFK instead. :-) > * it's apparently not Penrose' fault: >> He cringed >> at the notion of consciousness collapsing the wavefunction, saying >> that a lot of people seemed to think that, and that they must not >> have read his book. Well, without going back and re-reading _Shadows of the Mind_ let me just say that I would not be under this misconception *had I not* read the book. Many people seem to think that's exactly what he was saying in that book, particularly in the whole rant about microtubules and quantum coherence. The he claims there is some mediating particle interaction doesn't, in my mind, change what he seems to have said. That's one problem w/ pop-sci --- it's far less exact than real sci-lit. Much more open to misinterpretation. jb From ejw at cse.ucsc.edu Thu Jun 5 12:04:09 2003 From: ejw at cse.ucsc.edu (Jim Whitehead) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: Swimming in context In-Reply-To: <3EDF5088.3080304@barrera.org> Message-ID: IMO, such a blatant rejiggering of the context and meaning of the quote should be grounds for immediate termination of the issuing reporter. It's certainly a significant lapse in journalistic professionalism. - Jim From joe at barrera.org Thu Jun 5 12:13:09 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: awash in errors Message-ID: <3EDF8835.3070600@barrera.org> Yet more... for the three of you not already on IP. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [gulfwar-2] Guardian Retracts Both Wolfowitz "It's All About Oil" Story & "Secret Straw/Powell Meeting" Story Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 12:47:52 -0400 From: Aaron Dickey Reply-To: gulfwar-2@yahoogroups.com To: gulfwar-2@yahoogroups.com [Resending to correct conflation error and fix horrific line-wrapping problems. The original post has been removed from the archives. --Aaron] From : --snip-- Although The Guardian earlier reported that US deputy defence secretary, Paul Wolfowitz had said that the Iraq war was all about oil, the newspaper has now removed the article from its web site, and will print a full correction in Friday's edition. According to the Guardian's ombudsman, the quote, "Let's look at it simply. The most important difference between North Korea and Iraq is that economically, we just had no choice in Iraq. The country swims on a sea of oil," was taken out of context, and misconstrued. --snip-- The Guardian retracted another story this morning, this one being the allegation that Jack Straw and Colin Powell held a secret meeting at the Waldorf Hotel before Powell's UN speech, in which they both doubted whether Iraq actually had WMDs. From : --snip-- Thursday, June 5, 2003 In our front page lead on May 31 headlined "Straw, Powell had serious doubts over their Iraqi weapons claims," we said that the foreign secretary Jack Straw and his US counterpart Colin Powell had met at the Waldorf Hotel in New York shortly before Mr Powell addressed the United Nations on February 5. Mr Straw has now made it clear that no such meeting took place. The Guardian accepts that and apologises for suggesting it did. --snip-- The Guardian retraction comes on the same day this article ran in The Scotsman , via : --snip-- ALONE in a national newspaper industry congenitally reluctant to correct its mistakes, the Guardian has an exemplary record: its famous "corrections and clarifications" column has even been turned into a book. All the more mysterious, therefore, that it has yet to correct or clarify its Saturday page-one splash which alleged that Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary, and his US counterpart, Colin Powell, met in New York?s Waldorf Hotel just before a crucial UN session on Iraq on 5 February and moaned to each other about the poor quality of their intelligence on Saddam Hussein?s weapons of mass destruction. Some sort of clarification, at the very least, is surely in order because no evidence has yet been produced to show that the alleged meeting between Mr Powell and Mr Straw ever took place, much less that they said what the Guardian alleges. . . . The story?s provenance is not helped by the joint byline: Richard Norton-Taylor is an experienced correspondent on intelligence matters, but his name comes after Dan Plesch, who is not even a journalist but a "defence expert" who was opposed to the Iraq war and whose commentaries at the start of hostilities have not stood the test of time. --snip-- -- The Combatant State is your father and your mother, your only protector, the totality of your interests. No discipline can be stern enough for the man who denies that by word or deed. From tomwhore at slack.net Thu Jun 5 15:21:20 2003 From: tomwhore at slack.net (Tom) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: Willful Infringement Message-ID: >From the ever informative boingboing "Willful Infringement is a feature film about the ways that copyright has harmed free expression and creativity. The movie features clowns talking about the legal threats they got for twisting balloon-animal Barneys, Negativland conspiracists discussiing life after being crushed for making music out of samples, as well as lots of legal geniuses and iconoclasts talking about how we got here and where we're going. I was interviewed for this flick, but I didn't make the cut I saw (who knows if I made it to the DVD?). The movie is now out on DVD -- in glorious infringe-o-rama, sure to be removed form the market in short order. Get your copy while you still can! At $50, the price-tag is a little steep, but it's a fascinating watch." Anyone got a divx of this?:)- -tomwsmf From joe at barrera.org Thu Jun 5 12:25:14 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: Swimming in context In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EDF8B0A.9000105@barrera.org> Jim Whitehead wrote: > IMO, such a blatant rejiggering of the context and meaning of the quote > should be grounds for immediate termination of the issuing reporter. It's > certainly a significant lapse in journalistic professionalism. Absolutely. No arguments here. - Joe -- The Combatant State is your father and your mother, your only protector, the totality of your interests. No discipline can be stern enough for the man who denies that by word or deed. From gbolcer at endeavors.com Thu Jun 5 13:22:59 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:01 2003 Subject: Swimming in context References: <3EDF5088.3080304@barrera.org> Message-ID: <3EDF9893.6090301@endeavors.com> I thinkthe bottom line for international politics and war is--you kick them where it hurts most. Greg > And, the followup. Here's an angry debunking of the Guardian > story: > > > http://www.chronwatch.com/editorial/contentDisplay.asp?aid=2971 > > -- Gregory Alan Bolcer, CTO | work: +1.949.833.2800 gbolcer at endeavors.com | http://endeavors.com Endeavors Technology, Inc.| cell: +1.714.928.5476 From lgonze at panix.com Thu Jun 5 16:26:39 2003 From: lgonze at panix.com (Lucas Gonze) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: Senator wants limits on copy protection Message-ID: Deeply cluesome work from Sen. Brownback, but can that actually be his real name? Does he caucus with Mssrs. Redeye and Pimplenose? If elected I promise to introduce a bill to change this guy's name. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- http://news.com.com/2100-1028-1013037.html Senator wants limits on copy protection By Declan McCullagh Staff Writer, CNET News.com June 4, 2003, 9:54 AM PT http://news.com.com/2100-1028-1013037.html WASHINGTON--A conservative Republican senator said Wednesday that he has drafted a bill that would scale back the ability of record labels, movie studios and software companies to use anticopying technology. The bill, authored by Sen. Sam Brownback, would regulate digital rights management systems, granting consumers the right to resell copy-protected products and requiring digital media manufacturers to prominently disclose to consumers the presence of anticopying technology in their products. The Kansas Republican's bill requires that a copyright holder obtain a judge's approval before receiving the name of an alleged peer-to-peer pirate. That would amend the 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which a federal court concluded enables a copyright holder to force the disclosure of a suspected pirate's identity without a judge's review. This law is at issue in the recording industry's recent pursuit of the identity of a Verizon Communications subscriber. The main thrust of the Brownback bill, however, is to slap regulations on digital rights management (DRM) technology, which has become increasingly popular tool in reducing the widespread copyright infringement on the Internet. Last month, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer stressed his company's support for DRM technology. Apple Computer also uses DRM to limit how customers can reuse music that's downloaded from the iTunes Music Store. Some consumer groups argue that DRM infringes on the right to make "fair use" of copyrighted works and to back up legally purchased digital files. "The legislation seeks to create new tools to combat unfettered Internet piracy of digital content while maintaining the important ability of our nation's hardware manufacturers to innovate and build products consumers need and want to use," Brownback said in a statement. "The legislation recognizes that the same DRM technologies used to combat piracy are also sought after by the content industry to create new DRM-enabled business models. My legislation gives them a free hand in seeking out DRM technologies that permit them to explore these new opportunities, but ensures their success or failure will rest in the marketplace, where it belongs--not in Congress." If the Brownback proposal were enacted, the Federal Trade Commission would have the power to ban DRM systems that limit a consumer's right to resell any "digital media product," a category that includes everything from computer software to e-books to copy-protected CDs and movies. It also says that companies selling such products must offer "clear and conspicuous notice or a label on the product" indicating the presence of anticopying techology that follows FTC regulations, starting one year after the law's enactment, unless the FTC determines that industry groups have created reasonable "voluntary" guidelines of their own. At a privacy and politics summit here on Tuesday, an industry representative said the bill--called the Consumers, Schools and Libraries Digital Rights Management Awareness Act--will likely be introduced at a press conference in the middle of next week. A representative for Brownback said Wednesday that he could not confirm when the event would be held, except to say it would take place "shortly." Brownback, a conservative with a 100 percent vote from the American Conservative Union in 2000, is a member of the Senate Communications Subcommittee. "We're going to support it," Mike Godwin, an attorney with advocacy group Public Knowledge, said of Brownback's plan. "I think that Sen. Brownback and his staff have clearly made an effort to develop a bill that addresses some of the major excesses that we're seeing in the policy arena at the intersection of copyright policy and technology policy." However, a representative at the Recording Industry Association of America said the legislation is "weighted down with a variety of bad public policy judgments hostile to all property owners. The DMCA was a carefully crafted compromise and balance struck by Congress. That's why efforts to cherry-pick particular provisions are likely to fail." "With respect to the information subpoena provision," the RIAA representative continued, "the intent of Congress was clear and appropriate, and the district court's decisive rulings show that Congress got it right." A draft of the Brownback bill provided to CNET News.com by a congressional aide also: ? Prohibits the Federal Communications Commission from forcing companies that make or sell PCs or digital video products to include specific copy-protection technology in them. ? Requires the FTC to create an advisory committee that will describe "the ways in which access control technology and redistribution control technology may affect consumer, educational institution and library use of digital media products based on their legal and customary uses of such products." ? Requires the FTC to prepare a report two years after the bill is enacted into law. The report would include information about how prevalent DRM technologies are, whether they allow "consumers, educational institutions and libraries to engage in all lawful uses of the product," and how often copyright holders have tried to glean subscriber information from Internet service providers. Adam Thierer, an analyst at the free-market group Cato Institute, applauded parts of Brownback's bill--such as limiting the FCC's power--but said it was a mistake to involve the federal government in regulating DRM technology. "It's a decidedly mixed bag," Thierer said. "There are some things worth praising, such as opposing technology mandates from the FCC, but the baggage in this bill in terms of the FTC regulations are somewhat troubling...There are requirements that cut in the opposite direction. That's really unfortunate." An unrelated bill already introduced in Congress by Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., takes a similar approach in part, saying that software, music and movies that include copy-protection technology must be prominently labeled as having such technology, with consumer warnings. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the pho mailing list, managed by Majordomo 1.94.4. To send a message to the list, email pho@onehouse.com. To send a request to majordomo, email majordomo@onehouse.com and put your request in the body of the message (use request "help" for help). To unsubscribe from the list, email majordomo@onehouse.com and put "unsubscribe pho" in the body of the message. From lgonze at panix.com Thu Jun 5 16:29:30 2003 From: lgonze at panix.com (Lucas Gonze) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: Swimming in context In-Reply-To: <3EDF9893.6090301@endeavors.com> Message-ID: The trick is to find a way for this to coexist with liberal democracy at home. - Lucas On Thu, 5 Jun 2003, Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote: > I thinkthe bottom line for international > politics and war is--you kick them where > it hurts most. > > Greg > > > And, the followup. Here's an angry debunking of the Guardian > > story: > > > > > > http://www.chronwatch.com/editorial/contentDisplay.asp?aid=2971 > > > > > > > From joe at barrera.org Thu Jun 5 13:28:34 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: Swimming in context In-Reply-To: <3EDF9893.6090301@endeavors.com> References: <3EDF5088.3080304@barrera.org> <3EDF9893.6090301@endeavors.com> Message-ID: <3EDF99E2.6080407@barrera.org> Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote: > I think the bottom line for international > politics and war is--you kick them where > it hurts most. Which is fairly standard political strategy. What's interesting here is how The Guardian transformed that into, "I have a great interest in his crotch." - Joe P.S. Points to anyone who (without using a search engine) can identify where my .sig comes from. -- The Combatant State is your father and your mother, your only protector, the totality of your interests. No discipline can be stern enough for the man who denies that by word or deed. From gbolcer at endeavors.com Thu Jun 5 13:30:22 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: Tax cuts (was RE: NYTimes.com Article: No Bunker Found Under Bomb Site) References: <2528C394-96D9-11D7-8855-003065DAE704@mithral.com> Message-ID: <3EDF9A4E.9060100@endeavors.com> Adam L Beberg wrote: > With the lastest "cuts" something like 40% of people now pay no federal > taxes at all, up from around 30% 10 years ago. And people say that > Europe is socialist, ha! I propose to give $2 trillion worth of tax cuts[0] to the top 80% of people who don't pay taxes. "The plan is simple, practical, and will make mincemeat of the problem overnight."[1] Greg [0] "Two nuthins is still nuthin" -- Curly from the 3 Stooges [1] http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/oct97/0902.html -- Gregory Alan Bolcer, CTO | work: +1.949.833.2800 gbolcer at endeavors.com | http://endeavors.com Endeavors Technology, Inc.| cell: +1.714.928.5476 From gbolcer at endeavors.com Thu Jun 5 14:47:19 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: Wolfowitz: Iraq war was about oil (fwd) References: Message-ID: <3EDFAC57.9060001@endeavors.com> Lorin Rivers wrote: > I predict that Blair is going to lose his job and Bush will keep his. > > More's the pity, too. That's funny. Just last month they were predicting a Chirac scandal that was going to bring down his whole administration. Greg -- Gregory Alan Bolcer, CTO | work: +1.949.833.2800 gbolcer at endeavors.com | http://endeavors.com Endeavors Technology, Inc.| cell: +1.714.928.5476 From joe at barrera.org Thu Jun 5 15:25:20 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: [MORK] Wiki Message-ID: <3EDFB540.1070505@barrera.org> I'm planning on setting up a Wiki on xent for FoRK stuff. E.g. I'd like to convert the FoRK FAQ into a Wiki document so that anyone can update e.g. the recommended reading list. I'm using TWiki for barrera.org, and I'm familiar with it. Does anyone recommend any other Wiki clones over TWiki? - Joe -- The Combatant State is your father and your mother, your only protector, the totality of your interests. No discipline can be stern enough for the man who denies that by word or deed. From tomwhore at slack.net Thu Jun 5 18:49:48 2003 From: tomwhore at slack.net (Tom) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: [MORK] Wiki In-Reply-To: <3EDFB540.1070505@barrera.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jun 2003, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: --]I'm using TWiki for barrera.org, and I'm familiar with it. --]Does anyone recommend any other Wiki clones over TWiki? Ive been using moinmoin recetnly over at www.personaltelco.net and it is nice, but when you boil all the wikis down they are pretty much the same. I would ask that you include the spell check addon though:)- -tomwsmf From deafbox at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 23:01:18 2003 From: deafbox at hotmail.com (Russell Turpin) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: [MORK] Wiki Message-ID: I've never used Twiki, so I can't compare, but I've been quite pleased with MoinMoin. Here is an example MoinMoin wiki: http://www.alberg30.org/collaborate/moin.cgi Here's the project: http://moin.sourceforge.net/ Installation is a snap, I've never had any significant problem with it, each page is kept as a text file, pages are versioned, the versioning is visible to wiki participants, and it is pretty good at external linking and embedding images. Of course, the advantage to using Twiki is I would learn something about another wiki. That might not be much advantage to anyone else. ;-) _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From tomwhore at slack.net Thu Jun 5 19:11:46 2003 From: tomwhore at slack.net (Tom) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: [MORK] Wiki In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Of course if we are starting from scratch Id love to make a bid for Zwiki http://zwiki.org/FrontPage and even CMFwiki under plone www.plone.org Plone really blows my skirt way up. This would give us lots more to play with than just a wiki. a thought -tomwsmf From jbone at deepfile.com Thu Jun 5 18:39:28 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: [MORK] Wiki In-Reply-To: <3EDFB540.1070505@barrera.org> Message-ID: <90DB63C8-97A6-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> Having looked hard at every Wiki under the sun and set up / run many of them, I have a pretty strong recommendation... MoinMoin, baby, all the way. Been using it for years now, love it love it love it. Pure Python goodness, implicit versioning of WikiPages, uses the filesystem as its store, searchable. Trivially hackable / extensible --- macro plug-ins rock, we've actually done a couple at Deepfile to e.g. render dot-language graph descriptions embedded in pages, to get directory listings, and so on. Very cool, very feature-rich, yet very simple at the same time. I think my name's even in the distro somewhere. :-) Trust me on this one, every time the "which Wiki" question has come up and I've mentioned this, people have been very, very happy with the results. The one thing it doesn't have that some others do is per-page access control. That's not very Wiki-Sabi anyway. Has never been a problem IMHO, even on the open Internet. (Particularly w/ versioning and w/ page delete turned off, this is no problem.) RESTWiki uses MoinMoin. I convinced Mark that was the way to go a couple of years back, and as far as I know he's quite with it. MoinMoin is itself pretty RESTful, moreso than some other Wikis. There's also a RecentChanges->RSS capability. Very nice, then people can subscribe to Wiki changes from their aggregators. :-) And no, the hairy guy is not me. ;-) And yes, you can get rid of him. (The whole thing is easily theme-able.) jb [1] http://internet.conveyor.com/RESTwiki/moin.cgi/FrontPage From lgonze at panix.com Thu Jun 5 19:48:35 2003 From: lgonze at panix.com (Lucas Gonze) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: [MORK] Wiki In-Reply-To: <90DB63C8-97A6-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> Message-ID: I advocate TWiki. All other wikis are inferior. There is no other wiki before tee wiki. I know this because Ward Cunningham came to me in a dream. And now, we must wage AllOut WikiWar. WikiWar involves LotsOfInterCaps. From deafbox at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 00:19:27 2003 From: deafbox at hotmail.com (Russell Turpin) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: Who knew the world needed a better chicken catcher? Message-ID: Y'all have been building hammers, and the market is crying for an umbrella: http://online.wsj.com/article_email/0,,SB105467590014941400,00.html ;-) _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From tomwhore at slack.net Thu Jun 5 20:29:56 2003 From: tomwhore at slack.net (Tom) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: [MORK] Wiki In-Reply-To: <90DB63C8-97A6-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> Message-ID: --]MoinMoin, baby, all the way. Been using it for years now, love it love Heres a cool moinmoin addin, a maping function, very handy for finding wifi hotspots. http://www.personaltelco.net/index.cgi/Node236 http://www.personaltelco.net/index.cgi/MoinMap -tomwsmf From jtauber at jtauber.com Fri Jun 6 09:23:31 2003 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: [MORK] Wiki Message-ID: <20030606002331.8315B33F34@www.fastmail.fm> I've had good experiences with both MoinMoin and TWiki (although I found MoinMoin easier to get going with). I've just written my own python wiki clone but it isn't ready for prime time :-) James -- James Tauber http://jtauber.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "James Tauber" Subject: Re: [MORK] Wiki Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 08:21:27 +0800 Size: 1504 Url: http://lair.xent.com/pipermail/fork/attachments/20030606/e274bd67/ReMORKWiki.eml From beberg at mithral.com Thu Jun 5 20:24:32 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: Who knew the world needed a better chicken catcher? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3E970BD2-97B5-11D7-92F1-003065DAE704@mithral.com> On Thursday, June 5, 2003, at 06:19 PM, Russell Turpin wrote: > Y'all have been building hammers, and the market > is crying for an umbrella: > > http://online.wsj.com/article_email/0,,SB105467590014941400,00.html > > ;-) All it needs is a deep frier on the back and a drive-through window. And AI is way way more advanced then is needed to run this thing around the inside of a big cage, gotta get rid of that expensive driver! - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From bitbitch at magnesium.net Thu Jun 5 23:14:58 2003 From: bitbitch at magnesium.net (bitbitch) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: Reaffirming my belief as to why children are bad. Message-ID: <3EDFF922.4010200@magnesium.net> Heh heh heh. http://www.beerho.com/filepile/Self_explainatory.mpg From joe at barrera.org Thu Jun 5 20:21:12 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: [MORK] Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EDFFA98.7060500@barrera.org> Okay, so that's several votes for MoinMoin, a vote for TWiki (but was it serious? :-); and a pointer to http://plone.org, which looks very cool and requires further study. This sort of reminds me of all the *Angband clones out there. Maybe someone has a combined Angband/Wiki engine? Or at least a ZWiki (ZelaznyWiki)? Seriously, I'm going to see if I have the means and energy to get Plone running; if not, then I'll go with MoinMoin. One consideration is that I'd like to have the same thing running on barrera.org, which is hosted by perfectpresence.com and runs apache and everything else under (I think) the bronze: http://www.perfectpresence.com/sharedcompare.php Don't know if I can get Zope running there. - Joe From jtauber at jtauber.com Fri Jun 6 11:40:54 2003 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: [MORK] Wiki In-Reply-To: <3EDFFA98.7060500@barrera.org> References: <3EDFFA98.7060500@barrera.org> Message-ID: <20030606024054.01D8253EE@www.fastmail.fm> I'm in the process of switching many of my sites to http://python-hosting.com/ who provide everything from python cgi to Plone. James On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 19:21:12 -0700, "Joseph S. Barrera III" said: > One consideration is that I'd like to have the > same thing running on barrera.org, which > is hosted by perfectpresence.com and runs apache > and everything else under (I think) the bronze: > http://www.perfectpresence.com/sharedcompare.php > Don't know if I can get Zope running there. -- James Tauber http://jtauber.com/ From joe at barrera.org Thu Jun 5 21:19:24 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: [MORK] Wiki In-Reply-To: <20030606024054.01D8253EE@www.fastmail.fm> References: <3EDFFA98.7060500@barrera.org> <20030606024054.01D8253EE@www.fastmail.fm> Message-ID: <3EE0083C.3030600@barrera.org> James Tauber wrote: > I'm in the process of switching many of my sites to > http://python-hosting.com/ who provide everything from python cgi to Plone. That's pretty nice. Wish I had known about them earlier. - Joe From gbolcer at endeavors.com Thu Jun 5 21:45:25 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: Who knew the world needed a better chicken catcher? References: Message-ID: <3EE00E55.4FD426FF@endeavors.com> Russell Turpin wrote: > > Y'all have been building hammers, and the market > is crying for an umbrella: > > http://online.wsj.com/article_email/0,,SB105467590014941400,00.html > > ;-) > > __ I think one of my stupid ideas that I FoRK'd for a company I'd like to start was after reading about a startup that got a pot of money for making contact lenses for chickens. It turns out that it's a huge expense every year because when a hen sees another hen with blood on it, they'll all gang up and peck it to death. Obviously the peckee will fight back. Chicken farmers lose their whole crop that way. They found that if they filter out red using special chicken contact lenses, then they don't have the same reaction. I always thought that it'd be easier to just blind the chickens using a special frequency laser rather than trying to make them wear contacts. The point being, there's plenty of innovation left in chicken farming. Greg From colds at dydax.com Fri Jun 6 01:18:53 2003 From: colds at dydax.com (Chris Olds) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: Reaffirming my belief as to why children are bad. In-Reply-To: <3EDFF922.4010200@magnesium.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jun 2003, bitbitch wrote: > Heh heh heh. > > http://www.beerho.com/filepile/Self_explainatory.mpg Tres amusing. Of course, this kind of behavior is easy to avoid (ask G :) I trained it out of my kids at a vary early age. Of course, they're still Evil... /cco From jbone at deepfile.com Fri Jun 6 02:26:00 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: [MORK] Wiki In-Reply-To: <3EDFFA98.7060500@barrera.org> Message-ID: On Thursday, Jun 5, 2003, at 21:21 US/Central, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > This sort of reminds me of all the > *Angband clones out there. Maybe someone has a > combined Angband/Wiki engine? > Or at least a ZWiki (ZelaznyWiki)? ZWiki NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Please. Trust me on this. Plone vs. MoinMoin? Do you want to get something accomplished, or fix other peoples' bugs? That's the central concern. If you want to hack, go w/ plone --- less luggage. If you want to get stuff done, MoinMoin. $0.02, jb From jbone at deepfile.com Fri Jun 6 02:30:52 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: Who knew the world needed a better chicken catcher? In-Reply-To: <3EE00E55.4FD426FF@endeavors.com> Message-ID: <6B9340B8-97E8-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> On Thursday, Jun 5, 2003, at 22:45 US/Central, Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote: > I think one of my stupid ideas that I FoRK'd > for a company I'd like to start was after reading > about a startup that got a pot of money for making > contact lenses for chickens. OB_BRAG: as it turns out, embarrassingly, one of my co-founders and the first investor in my first company, Active Paper, was one of the very first angel investors that brought this very thing out of A&M University of Texas. These folks are otherwise very business-savvy --- at one point, the wealthiest independent oil company in America --- but in this case, ka-put. Didn't on some level bode well for Active Paper / Activerse, but we got liquid with a high multiple anyway. :-) jb From jbone at deepfile.com Fri Jun 6 02:42:02 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: [MORK] Wiki In-Reply-To: <3EE0083C.3030600@barrera.org> Message-ID: On Thursday, Jun 5, 2003, at 22:19 US/Central, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > James Tauber wrote: > >> I'm in the process of switching many of my sites to >> http://python-hosting.com/ who provide everything from python cgi to >> Plone. > > That's pretty nice. > Wish I had known about them earlier. Of course, MM is kosher as well... jb From jbone at deepfile.com Fri Jun 6 03:00:48 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: Republican Kiddie pR0n Message-ID: <9A4D148E-97EC-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> With apologies to Lewis Black / the Daily Show, check out the front page of the IRS website... (Warning, certainly ephemeral --- only there until the GOP IRS management appointees and their STUPID STUPID STUPID marcomm contractors figure out what idiots they are!) http://www.irs.gov/ jb From mike at techdirt.com Fri Jun 6 02:29:25 2003 From: mike at techdirt.com (Mike Masnick) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: Who knew the world needed a better chicken catcher? In-Reply-To: <6B9340B8-97E8-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> References: <3EE00E55.4FD426FF@endeavors.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030606012247.02b47e88@techdirt.com> At 01:30 AM 6/6/2003 -0500, Jeff Bone wrote: >On Thursday, Jun 5, 2003, at 22:45 US/Central, Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote: > >>I think one of my stupid ideas that I FoRK'd >>for a company I'd like to start was after reading >>about a startup that got a pot of money for making >>contact lenses for chickens. > >OB_BRAG: as it turns out, embarrassingly, one of my co-founders and the >first investor in my first company, Active Paper, was one of the very >first angel investors that brought this very thing out of A&M University >of Texas. These folks are otherwise very business-savvy --- at one point, >the wealthiest independent oil company in America --- but in this case, >ka-put. Didn't on some level bode well for Active Paper / Activerse, but >we got liquid with a high multiple anyway. :-) This sounded familiar to me... so I did a little googling and... Jbone has told this story before: http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/july99/0027.html And I responded: http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/july99/0052.html talking about how the "chicken contact lens" case study was the very first case study I did in business school, and how just about every other MBA I've met also has memories of doing the chicken contact lens case at some point. You can apparently still buy the full case study from HBS: http://www.hbsp.harvard.edu/hbsp/prod_detail.asp?575072 Though, the price appears to have gone up $1.50 to $6.50. The Inc. Magazine story still exists on the web as well: http://www.inc.com/incmagazine/archives/05890481.html Mike From jbone at deepfile.com Fri Jun 6 04:46:14 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: Republican Kiddie pR0n In-Reply-To: <9A4D148E-97EC-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> Message-ID: <547DD2EC-97FB-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> On Friday, Jun 6, 2003, at 02:00 US/Central, Jeff Bone wrote: > > With apologies to Lewis Black / the Daily Show, check out the front > page of the IRS website... (Warning, certainly ephemeral --- only > there until the GOP IRS management appointees and their STUPID STUPID > STUPID marcomm contractors figure out what idiots they are!) > > http://www.irs.gov/ > > jb For the archive* and current / nascent or future semantic text data mining tools: June 6 2003 front page IRS website, naked human infant, happy, rolling around in American cash money (dollar bills.) Symbolism abhorrent. Do the math. :-) Typical of 2000-2004 American "ruling party" gaffs re: lack of depth, understanding, and competence in (generally speakng) public relations. jb * because, of course, this will be gone as soon as some apparatchik realizes it is STUPID and EMBARRASSING. From daniel.brickley at bristol.ac.uk Fri Jun 6 06:24:51 2003 From: daniel.brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: [MORK] Wiki In-Reply-To: References: <3EDFFA98.7060500@barrera.org> Message-ID: <20030606092451.GE28980@tux.w3.org> * Jeff Bone [2003-06-06 01:26-0500] > > On Thursday, Jun 5, 2003, at 21:21 US/Central, Joseph S. Barrera III > wrote: > > >This sort of reminds me of all the > >*Angband clones out there. Maybe someone has a > >combined Angband/Wiki engine? > >Or at least a ZWiki (ZelaznyWiki)? > > ZWiki NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! > > Please. Trust me on this. > > Plone vs. MoinMoin? Do you want to get something accomplished, or fix > other peoples' bugs? That's the central concern. If you want to hack, > go w/ plone --- less luggage. If you want to get stuff done, MoinMoin. +1 re MoinMoin and getting job done. I had usemod wiki running for the FOAF site, and TWiki at W3C; the former was OK, very basic, but codebase somewhat dead. The latter seemed really good but the feature richness left too much complexity visible, and it was pretty confusing and intimidating. Am now running MoinMoin at http://esw.w3.org/topic/ and http://rdfweb.org/topic/ and pretty happy with it. Only main gripe is that it isn't XHTML-happy yet, and awaiting some re-engineering to make that possible (migration to use the DOM, or something). Am sure that fix will come in time. Moin is good. Also one to watch for Perl folks, http://search.cpan.org/author/KAKE/CGI-Wiki/ cheers, Dan From kehoea at parhasard.net Fri Jun 6 14:17:51 2003 From: kehoea at parhasard.net (Aidan Kehoe) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: Wolfowitz: Iraq war was about oil (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <20030604194130.DB7AC16FC8@jmason.org> Message-ID: <16096.34415.453143.625673@matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie> Ar an 4? l? de m? 6, scr?obh Lorin Rivers : > I predict that Blair is going to lose his job and Bush will keep his. I predict the inverse. Economy, economy, economy. And you're not someone who has looked at the state of the British Tory party either, are you. -- Parh?s?rd; rex quondam Pok?monorum, rex futuram Pok?monorum. From kehoea at parhasard.net Fri Jun 6 14:27:47 2003 From: kehoea at parhasard.net (Aidan Kehoe) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:02 2003 Subject: Reaffirming my belief as to why children are bad. In-Reply-To: References: <3EDFF922.4010200@magnesium.net> Message-ID: <16096.35011.562229.129458@matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie> Ar an 6? l? de m? 6, scr?obh Chris Olds : > > On Thu, 5 Jun 2003, bitbitch wrote: > > Heh heh heh. > > > > http://www.beerho.com/filepile/Self_explainatory.mpg > > Tres amusing. Of course, this kind of behavior is easy to avoid (ask G :) > I trained it out of my kids at a vary early age. You trained them to use condoms at a very early age? Good for you. -- Parh?s?rd; rex quondam Pok?monorum, rex futuram Pok?monorum. From rah at shipwright.com Fri Jun 6 10:38:16 2003 From: rah at shipwright.com (R. A. Hettinga) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: Reaffirming my belief as to why children are bad. In-Reply-To: <16096.35011.562229.129458@matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie> References: <3EDFF922.4010200@magnesium.net> <16096.35011.562229.129458@matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie> Message-ID: At 1:27 PM +0100 6/6/03, Aidan Kehoe wrote: >You trained them to use condoms at a very early age? Good for you. That's one way to keep their nappies dry, I suppose... Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' From joe at barrera.org Fri Jun 6 08:17:20 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: [MORK] Wiki In-Reply-To: <20030606092451.GE28980@tux.w3.org> References: <3EDFFA98.7060500@barrera.org> <20030606092451.GE28980@tux.w3.org> Message-ID: <3EE0A270.8080808@barrera.org> Dan Brickley wrote: > > * Jeff Bone [2003-06-06 01:26-0500] > >>Please. Trust me on this. >> >>Plone vs. MoinMoin? Do you want to get something accomplished, or fix >>other peoples' bugs? That's the central concern. If you want to hack, >>go w/ plone --- less luggage. If you want to get stuff done, MoinMoin. > > +1 re MoinMoin and getting job done. > > I had usemod wiki running for the FOAF site, and TWiki at W3C; the former > was OK, very basic, but codebase somewhat dead. The latter seemed > really good but the feature richness left too much complexity visible, and it > was pretty confusing and intimidating. Fair enough. MoinMoin it shall be. - Joe From elias at cse.ucsc.edu Fri Jun 6 08:34:46 2003 From: elias at cse.ucsc.edu (Elias Sinderson) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: [MORK] Wiki References: <3EDFFA98.7060500@barrera.org> Message-ID: <3EE0A686.2050509@cse.ucsc.edu> Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > Okay, so that's several votes for MoinMoin Several +1 (although I haven't much experience with other systems, I have had no compelling need to explore beyond MoinMoin). Elias From joe at barrera.org Fri Jun 6 08:37:52 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: [MORK] Wiki In-Reply-To: <3EE0A686.2050509@cse.ucsc.edu> References: <3EDFFA98.7060500@barrera.org> <3EE0A686.2050509@cse.ucsc.edu> Message-ID: <3EE0A740.6000404@barrera.org> Elias Sinderson wrote: > Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > >> Okay, so that's several votes for MoinMoin > > Several +1 (although I haven't much experience with other systems, I > have had no compelling need to explore beyond MoinMoin). You know, if it had a cute Japanese name (like MoshiMoshi) instead of a cute(?) German name, I would have picked it in a heartbeat... - Joe From gbolcer at endeavors.com Fri Jun 6 08:53:02 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: Republican Kiddie pR0n References: <547DD2EC-97FB-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> Message-ID: <3EE0AACE.3E2B5921@endeavors.com> Obviously you've never chased a nekkid baby across the floor trying to diaper him. You can tell a lot about a person by how they criticize. Jeff, I have to say you have a death wish. Critizing the IRS, the tax cut, and interpreting that pic and including your assessment into a public archive that goes to the top of every search engine as "kiddie pR0n"? I'd get that post pulled if I were you. Greg Jeff Bone wrote: > > On Friday, Jun 6, 2003, at 02:00 US/Central, Jeff Bone wrote: > > > > > With apologies to Lewis Black / the Daily Show, check out the front > > page of the IRS website... (Warning, certainly ephemeral --- only > > there until the GOP IRS management appointees and their STUPID STUPID > > STUPID marcomm contractors figure out what idiots they are!) > > > > http://www.irs.gov/ > > > > jb > > For the archive* and current / nascent or future semantic text data > mining tools: > > June 6 2003 front page IRS website, naked human infant, happy, rolling > around in American cash money (dollar bills.) Symbolism abhorrent. Do > the math. :-) Typical of 2000-2004 American "ruling party" gaffs re: > lack of depth, understanding, and competence in (generally speakng) > public relations. > > jb > > * because, of course, this will be gone as soon as some apparatchik > realizes it is STUPID and EMBARRASSING. From joe at barrera.org Fri Jun 6 08:42:00 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: [MORK] Wiki In-Reply-To: <3EE0A740.6000404@barrera.org> References: <3EDFFA98.7060500@barrera.org> <3EE0A686.2050509@cse.ucsc.edu> <3EE0A740.6000404@barrera.org> Message-ID: <3EE0A838.4010204@barrera.org> Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > You know, if it had a cute Japanese name (like MoshiMoshi) instead > of a cute(?) German name, I would have picked it in a heartbeat... I should have known. There IS a Wiki called MoshiMoshi! http://schematics.sourceforge.net/moshimoshi.html ... written in Scheme, no less. From colds at dydax.com Fri Jun 6 13:12:37 2003 From: colds at dydax.com (Chris Olds) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: Reaffirming my belief as to why children are bad. In-Reply-To: <16096.35011.562229.129458@matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Jun 2003, Aidan Kehoe wrote: > > On Thu, 5 Jun 2003, bitbitch wrote: > > > Heh heh heh. > > > > > > http://www.beerho.com/filepile/Self_explainatory.mpg > > > > Tres amusing. Of course, this kind of behavior is easy to avoid > > (ask G :) I trained it out of my kids at a vary early age. > > You trained them to use condoms at a very early age? Good for you. Yes, I did that too, although AFAIK that lesson hasn't been tested yet (and I'm sure I'll be one of the last to know when it is). On the bright side, I've got two teenage kids that don't whine or wheedle; if they want something from someone, they ask. Sometimes they get what they ask for. The rest of the time, they deal with reality. I know this can be a disadvantage in some social or business situations, but why have kids if you're not going to give them something to tell their shrink? They may be Evil, but they're better than 97% of teenagers. Maybe more. /cco From bitbitch at magnesium.net Fri Jun 6 13:19:56 2003 From: bitbitch at magnesium.net (bitbitch) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: Republican Kiddie pR0n In-Reply-To: <3EE0AACE.3E2B5921@endeavors.com> References: <547DD2EC-97FB-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> <3EE0AACE.3E2B5921@endeavors.com> Message-ID: <3EE0BF2C.7000308@magnesium.net> Actually Greg, under the COPA (Or COPPA or CIPA or pick-your-favorite-kiddie-protection-law) the IRS picture there might easily be construed as a sexually suggestive picture of a nekkid kid. I mean, the whole swimming-in-money thing doesn't help the cause in the least. If I were a recently convicted pedo, brought down under those laws, I'd sue, sue, sue. BB >Obviously you've never chased a nekkid >baby across the floor trying to diaper him. >You can tell a lot about a person by how they >criticize. Jeff, I have to say you have a death >wish. > >Critizing the IRS, the tax cut, and >interpreting that pic and including your assessment >into a public archive that goes to the top of >every search engine as "kiddie pR0n"? > >I'd get that post pulled if I were you. > >Greg > > >Jeff Bone wrote: > > >>On Friday, Jun 6, 2003, at 02:00 US/Central, Jeff Bone wrote: >> >> >> >>>With apologies to Lewis Black / the Daily Show, check out the front >>>page of the IRS website... (Warning, certainly ephemeral --- only >>>there until the GOP IRS management appointees and their STUPID STUPID >>>STUPID marcomm contractors figure out what idiots they are!) >>> >>> http://www.irs.gov/ >>> >>>jb >>> >>> >>For the archive* and current / nascent or future semantic text data >>mining tools: >> >>June 6 2003 front page IRS website, naked human infant, happy, rolling >>around in American cash money (dollar bills.) Symbolism abhorrent. Do >>the math. :-) Typical of 2000-2004 American "ruling party" gaffs re: >>lack of depth, understanding, and competence in (generally speakng) >>public relations. >> >>jb >> >>* because, of course, this will be gone as soon as some apparatchik >>realizes it is STUPID and EMBARRASSING. >> >> > > > > From gbolcer at endeavors.com Fri Jun 6 10:29:32 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: Republican Kiddie pR0n References: <547DD2EC-97FB-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> <3EE0AACE.3E2B5921@endeavors.com> <3EE0BF2C.7000308@magnesium.net> Message-ID: <3EE0C16C.6050503@endeavors.com> Yer confusing lens and viewer, subject and object. The point being that porn is "I know it when I see it." I was making fun of Jeff in that I saw the picture and thought "child tax credit". Jeff say the picture and thought "k___ p___" What does that say about the way he thinks? Greg bitbitch wrote: > > Actually Greg, under the COPA (Or COPPA or CIPA or > pick-your-favorite-kiddie-protection-law) > > the IRS picture there might easily be construed as a sexually suggestive > picture of a nekkid kid. I mean, the whole swimming-in-money thing > doesn't help the cause in the least. If I were a recently convicted > pedo, brought down under those laws, I'd sue, sue, sue. > > BB > -- Gregory Alan Bolcer, CTO | work: +1.949.833.2800 gbolcer at endeavors.com | http://endeavors.com Endeavors Technology, Inc.| cell: +1.714.928.5476 From joe at barrera.org Fri Jun 6 10:46:57 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: [Fwd: Offshore Outsourcing Threatens Offshore Outsourcing] Message-ID: <3EE0C581.3090006@barrera.org> For Adam, especially the last sentence ("is there a country...") -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Offshore Outsourcing Threatens Offshore Outsourcing Date: 6 Jun 2003 16:26:06 -0000 From: brian-slashdotnews@hyperreal.org To: slashdotnews@hyperreal.org Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/06/06/1226232 Posted by: michael, on 2003-06-06 13:54:06 Topic: money, 403 comments from the giant-sucking-noise dept. [1]theodp writes "India offshore tech support companies may soon face job losses as U.S. companies such as IBM, Intel, Hewlett-Packard, Oracle and PeopleSoft explore countries with even cheaper sources of technical labor, including Romania, Russia, Hungary, the Czech Republic, the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam. Concerned that [2]outsourcing might be outsourced from India in the near future, a Bangalore call center owner said 'It's hard to know where it will all end. Is there a country were people will work for free?'" There's a [3]Newsforge story about the same subject. References 1. mailto:theodp@aol.com 2. http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,59126,00.html 3. http://newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/06/05/1542250&tid=3 -- I said drink the long draught, Dan For the Hip Priest From Rohit at ics.uci.edu Fri Jun 6 10:47:33 2003 From: Rohit at ics.uci.edu (Rohit Khare) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: A localhost IRC proxy sighting...! Message-ID: <921C2314-983E-11D7-84D2-000393B4C2A6@ICS.uci.edu> Can't imagine anyone from Endeavors, say, might find this familiar... :-) RK From NTK: >> TRACKING << sufficiently advanced technology : the gathering Friends on IRC either sound like lamers or cool, sarcastic, twisted geniuses. Contrast that to pals mediated through instant message clients, who *always* sound like dorks. Now you can instantly improve your friends' standing, by downloading BITLBEE, the incomprehensibly-named IM<->IRC bridge that lets you see your "buddies" using a standard IRC client. BitlBee runs as a fake local IRC server. Its sole real inhabitant is you. Its one faux channel is filled with your Yahoo!, MSN, ICQ and AOL colleagues, appearing and disappearing with the whims of their online status. As per informal IRC tradition, you can talk back by prefixing your message with their nick and a colon, or you can /msg them directly. BitlBee comes with a nice set of help commands, including a three step wizard that'll take you through your account set-up. There are a few rough edges (Bitlbee responded to an /away with a technically appropriate segfault and tends to smother comments from your AOL "friends" with unparsed HTML) but the logins themselves seem rock solid. Just don't mix it with Comic Chat, or you'll have to find a whole new gang of online buddies. http://www.lintux.cx/bitlbee.html - IRCers come from command lines. IMers look like dialog boxes http://www.bash.org/ - all those funny IRC quotes will be lost, like tears in rain From elias at cse.ucsc.edu Fri Jun 6 11:08:32 2003 From: elias at cse.ucsc.edu (Elias Sinderson) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: Republican Kiddie pR0n References: <547DD2EC-97FB-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> <3EE0AACE.3E2B5921@endeavors.com> <3EE0BF2C.7000308@magnesium.net> <3EE0C16C.6050503@endeavors.com> Message-ID: <3EE0CA90.1040302@cse.ucsc.edu> And I saw the picture and immediately thought "OMG, who would ever let their nekkid baby roll around in all that filthy money!" Seriously, paper bills are far from sterile - exposing an infant to that risk is reprehensible... yuk. Elias Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote: > Yer confusing lens and viewer, subject and object. > > The point being that porn is "I know it when > I see it." I was making fun of Jeff in that > I saw the picture and thought "child tax credit". > Jeff say the picture and thought "k___ p___" > > What does that say about the way he thinks? > > Greg > > bitbitch wrote: > >> >> Actually Greg, under the COPA (Or COPPA or CIPA or >> pick-your-favorite-kiddie-protection-law) >> >> the IRS picture there might easily be construed as a sexually >> suggestive picture of a nekkid kid. I mean, the whole >> swimming-in-money thing doesn't help the cause in the least. If I >> were a recently convicted pedo, brought down under those laws, I'd >> sue, sue, sue. >> >> BB >> > From joe at barrera.org Fri Jun 6 11:09:04 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: Republican Kiddie pR0n In-Reply-To: <3EE0CA90.1040302@cse.ucsc.edu> References: <547DD2EC-97FB-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> <3EE0AACE.3E2B5921@endeavors.com> <3EE0BF2C.7000308@magnesium.net> <3EE0C16C.6050503@endeavors.com> <3EE0CA90.1040302@cse.ucsc.edu> Message-ID: <3EE0CAB0.4030806@barrera.org> Elias Sinderson wrote: > And I saw the picture and immediately thought "OMG, who would ever let > their nekkid baby roll around in all that filthy money!" Seriously, > paper bills are far from sterile - exposing an infant to that risk is > reprehensible... yuk. And yet, infants are far from sterile - exposing currency to that risk is reprehensible... yuk. - Joe :-) From fork_list at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 11:14:59 2003 From: fork_list at hotmail.com (Mr. FoRK) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: The most bizarre p_rn spam in a while Message-ID: auctionstealerThis really suprised me... auctions for regionally illicit p_rn? (PS - no, i've never heard of or visited their site...) ----- Original Message ----- From: Accounting Manager To: auctionstealer.com customer Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 7:05 AM Subject: Re: my new account Dear valued customer A little bird told us, that you had been looking for something special on our site www.auctionstealer.com. We are gladly informing you, that from June, 1 we made a brand new service on our auction site. That service is dedicated to all special you can look for over the Internet. For example, if you need a gay related porno, or just a child porno - just visit our site. It's 100% legal, because in some countries child porno is allowed by law. You can be 100% sure that you'll find all you need there. Fetish, anal sex, lesbians, gay, bondage, children, and gangbang - all are there. You can bid with confidence all your bids are anonymous, your transaction or bid will be absolutely confidential, and we will resolve all troubles (if any will be between buyer and seller of porno). Also we can securely transfer your money to your clients worldwide, using our Swiss accounts. Can you ever dream about that service before? I doubt it - now all are in the one place and you know - it's only www.auctionstealer.com, where you can find all special you need. As our valued customer, you can get a huge discount on every bid. So - come on, let's do it together. You pay - we bid. And here are some samples of hottest things in our server - www.auctionstealer.com Hope to hear from you very soon Promoting Manager www.auctionstealer.com From dl at silcom.com Fri Jun 6 11:30:49 2003 From: dl at silcom.com (Dave Long) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: Checkpointing number theory discussion / Ugh In-Reply-To: Message from Jeff Bone <2B3B686C-977D-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> Message-ID: <200306061730.KAA09214@maltesecat> > BTW, s/quantum/Planck too easy. Could be Compton is the relevant scale. Please explain. > > As far as I'm concerned, a polarizer will > > "cause" wave collapse, with no need for a > > mystical "conscious observer". > > The polarizer is entangled with the system and itself exists in a > superposition of states until an external measurement is made. The polarizer is a honking huge device, and decoheres rapidly back to classicism. When we force a system into a desired subset of states, we call it measurement. When the rest of the universe smears what was our carefully prepared system into a different subset of states, we call it decoherence. Either way, it's all just interactions. No requirement for "consciousness" or special "external measurements". [0] > So you subscribe to the old school that the reactionaries (including > Schroedinger himself, Planck, Einstein, and de Broglie) originally > promoted re: Heisenburg Uncertainty --- that the act of measurement is > necessarily a physical interference ... True. [1] > That's been mostly out of vogue since Born, Dirac, and von > Neumann massaged QM into its currently accepted base form. False. Measurement means asking a question of a system, and getting an answer. In QM, this means forcing the system into those states for which which the question will make sense. (picking H so its eigenkets are the ones in which we're interested) Take a note played in an orchestra. It makes sense to ask at "what instant" a rim shot was played, or "what frequency" a pedal tone has -- but not the reverse. (position and momentum, time and energy) QM says that if we ask "what frequency" that pedal tone had, we get an answer, and as long as we keep asking the same question, we get the same answer. So far it's just like the orchestra note. (commuting observables are stationary) However, when we ask at "what instant", the note had, results differ. For a sound wave, we can only answer "wrong question", but for a quantum system, we can change H so that we get an answer. (measure a non-commuting observable) When we do get the answer, we find that we've coerced the note into something that looks very much like a rim shot, (we see that it gives the same answers) and the opposite happens when we coerce rim shots into pedal tones to ask for their frequency. (we asked for a new batch of eigenkets, and we got some) [2] When measuring non-commuting observables (asking new questions) means putting the system into an environment with different eigenkets (coercing note shapes to those that have valid answers), how does that not count as physical interference? -Dave :: :: :: [0] none of this is an argument against MWI. Saying that somehow there is a real difference between a world where one can observe wavefunctions collapsing and an ensemble of worlds which don't interact past the point of "collapse" is drawing too subtle a distinction for my taste. [1] "reactionaries" remind me of an example of latent semantic analysis as spam filter: . My favorite: > 30 points for claiming that your theories were developed by an > extraterrestrial civilization (without good evidence). [2] when GI Taylor was looking at this sort of thing, he planned his experiments so as to let them run while he went out sailing. :: :: :: > And yet if it's deterministic at the smallest of scales, it's > fundamentally deterministic. Our inability to perceive the determinism > due to the scope and scale of the data and calculations involved, or > due to the non-linear dynamics involved, does not imply or require some > sort of fundamental, a priori randomness. Who cares where the randomness comes in, as long as it's there? It won't matter if there's theoretically some argument for deterministic turtles if we still have to calculate with mixed states of eigenpachyderms by the time we've descended to the elephants. > > If it's a relatively short program, it will > > have relatively short limit cycles, so if we > > think we observe relatively complex behavior > > "Garbage Out", then we need some data bits, > > "Garbage In". > > Again, if there is a deterministic theory of quantum mechanics, there > is perhaps no such need for garbage in. That isn't a statement about QM, it's a statement about programs. (remember, "the state of the universe" can easily model a theoretical "very long input tape of random bits") :: :: :: J Bone, meet A Augustinus. > We should be careful not to > assume that our inability to perceive the order in something implies a > priori randomness --- it may merely require complex irreversible > computations. "We should be careful not to assume that our inability to perceive the order in something implies complex irreversible computations -- it may merely all be an expression of God's will." From fork_list at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 11:19:01 2003 From: fork_list at hotmail.com (Mr. FoRK) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: Memes go hollywood? Message-ID: I wonder if there is any concious awareness of memes, or if the combination of 'virus' and religion (okay, 'spirituality') is just a fluke. === Santana asks fans to spread 'spiritual virus' http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030606.waids0606/BNStory/Entertainment/ Beverly Hills, Calif. - Carlos Santana, whose upcoming U.S. concert tour will raise funds to fight AIDS in Africa, has invited fans to join him in "spreading a spiritual virus." Santana said he hopes to raise between $2.5-million (U.S.) and $3-million (U.S.) during his Shaman tour, which begins June 13 in Raleigh, N.C., and ends in Los Angeles on July 14. Net proceeds will go to the Artists for a New South Africa fund, which supports South African groups fighting the spread of HIV and AIDS. "We invite you to join us in spreading a spiritual virus," the 55-year-old Grammy-winning guitarist told a press conference Thursday attended by South African Archbishop Desmond Tutu. "We invite you to create a masterpiece of joy on this planet." AIDS awareness booths will be set up at the concerts to provide information to fans. Tutu and celebrities including Samuel Jackson, Alfre Woodard and Blair Underwood praised Santana and his wife, Deborah, for supporting the cause. "Apartheid tried to destroy our people and apartheid failed," Tutu said. "If we don't act against HIV-AIDS it may succeed, for it is already decimating our population." More than 42 million people around the world have HIV and 29 million of them live in sub-Saharan Africa. According to the artists group, 600 people die from AIDS every day in South Africa and 1,600 contract HIV. Santana won eight Grammys for his Supernatural album. From fork_list at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 11:22:43 2003 From: fork_list at hotmail.com (Mr. FoRK) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: Oracle bids for PeopleSoft? Opportunity for Beberg Message-ID: Good lord, after this there will be such a drought of customer satisfaction, it may create huge opportunities for small/mid-size software companies. Hey, Beberg, is your golden turd able to take down PeopleShaft & Oracle combined? Let's hope so... == Oracle bid for PeopleSoft fuels software rally Shares of software companies rose sharply on Friday after Oracle Corp.'s surprise $5.1 billion bid for rival PeopleSoft Inc raised prospects for a flurry of consolidation in the sector. "It's too soon to see if this is a fishing expedition or a serious bid, but it's a starting gun (for consolidation)," said Steven Frankel, analyst at Adams, Harkness & Hill. "It's saying these properties are not going to sit forever." The offer from Oracle, the world's No. 2 software maker, to buy PeopleSoft came just days after PeopleSoft said it would buy rival J.D. Edwards & Co. for $1.6 billion in stock. That deal would vault PeopleSoft ahead of Oracle in terms of market share for software applications. From gbolcer at endeavors.com Fri Jun 6 11:20:09 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: Republican Kiddie pR0n References: <547DD2EC-97FB-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> <3EE0AACE.3E2B5921@endeavors.com> <3EE0BF2C.7000308@magnesium.net> <3EE0C16C.6050503@endeavors.com> <3EE0CA90.1040302@cse.ucsc.edu> <3EE0CAB0.4030806@barrera.org> Message-ID: <3EE0CD49.1040107@endeavors.com> There's actually a philosophy that more exposure leads to less sickness over the course of childhood due to the body's ability to build up immunities. Greg Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > Elias Sinderson wrote: > >> And I saw the picture and immediately thought "OMG, who would ever let >> their nekkid baby roll around in all that filthy money!" Seriously, >> paper bills are far from sterile - exposing an infant to that risk is >> reprehensible... yuk. > > > And yet, infants are far from sterile - exposing currency to that risk > is reprehensible... yuk. > > - Joe :-) > > > -- Gregory Alan Bolcer, CTO | work: +1.949.833.2800 gbolcer at endeavors.com | http://endeavors.com Endeavors Technology, Inc.| cell: +1.714.928.5476 From ejw at cse.ucsc.edu Fri Jun 6 11:25:39 2003 From: ejw at cse.ucsc.edu (Jim Whitehead) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: Republican Kiddie pR0n In-Reply-To: <3EE0AACE.3E2B5921@endeavors.com> Message-ID: > Critizing the IRS, the tax cut, and > interpreting that pic and including your assessment > into a public archive that goes to the top of > every search engine as "kiddie pR0n"? FWIW, I didn't have an adverse reaction to the picture either. When the weather is warm, it's pretty much impossible to keep clothes on my 2 1/2 year old, so we pick the battle we know we can win: slapping on some sunscreen. So, naked babies don't phase me. Crass, yes. pR0n, no. - Jim From joe at barrera.org Fri Jun 6 11:23:23 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: Oracle bids for PeopleSoft? Opportunity for Beberg In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EE0CE0B.8090302@barrera.org> Mr. FoRK wrote: > Hey, Beberg, is your golden turd able to take down PeopleShaft & Oracle > combined? Let's hope so... http://wwwthep.physik.uni-mainz.de/~cbauer/japan2/002.jpg <--- golden turd From deafbox at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 18:31:38 2003 From: deafbox at hotmail.com (Russell Turpin) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: The most bizarre p_rn spam in a while Message-ID: >PS - no, i've never heard of or visited >eir site... But what sites have you visited? Hmmm? It looks to me like you're on the FBI's list of suspected perverts. ;-) _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jm at jmason.org Fri Jun 6 12:00:36 2003 From: jm at jmason.org (Justin Mason) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: Republican Kiddie pR0n In-Reply-To: Message from Gregory Alan Bolcer of "Fri, 06 Jun 2003 10:20:09 PDT." <3EE0CD49.1040107@endeavors.com> Message-ID: <20030606180041.B4A0416F00@jmason.org> Gregory Alan Bolcer said: > There's actually a philosophy that more exposure > leads to less sickness over the course of childhood > due to the body's ability to build up immunities. Yeah, I think recent issues of New Scientist has covered some "proper science" papers backing this up. --j. From mike at techdirt.com Fri Jun 6 12:59:11 2003 From: mike at techdirt.com (Mike Masnick) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: What the market really measures... Cringely on SCO / Linux In-Reply-To: <78BF329F-930B-11D7-A65F-003065DAE704@mithral.com> References: <19D88AD4-92D0-11D7-9BA8-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030606113156.031ec1e0@techdirt.com> At 08:59 PM 5/30/2003 -0500, Adam L Beberg wrote: >On Friday, May 30, 2003, at 01:54 PM, Jeff Bone wrote: > >>IMHO, this speaks to what the market *really* measures. Stock prices are >>a kind of approval rating; > >You do get that after about 10AM on IPO day the company and the stock have >NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER right? You do get that this is not true, right? I mean, I know what you're trying to say in that changes in stock price have no direct impact on the company's cash position, but it's the analysis of someone who has just been told how the stock market works, and hasn't actually thought it through. Since the company can always offer more stock for sale, the share price is very much an indication of how well people believe the company is performing and how much it's worth. It's the meter that determines how much more money they can raise, if they need to, as well as how much the company is valued at in a merger/acquisition. Since such things have a direct impact on the control of management, I'd say that the stock price has an awful lot to do with the performance of the company. I hope that whatever your magic software does, it provides you with a better understanding of capital markets. I find it amusing that you claim it takes 3 to 6 hours with a whiteboard to explain what your technology does, but you try to simplify capital markets in single sentences. Mike From gbolcer at endeavors.com Fri Jun 6 13:03:14 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: amex spam Message-ID: <3EE0E572.3050701@endeavors.com> You've got to be kidding me. After I've opted out of their email four or five times before, it still takes weeks instead of seconds to get off spam lists. Greg -- Gregory Alan Bolcer, CTO | work: +1.949.833.2800 gbolcer at endeavors.com | http://endeavors.com Endeavors Technology, Inc.| cell: +1.714.928.5476 > Your E-mail preferences for "xxxxxxxx" have been successfully updated. > It will take approximately 2 to 3 weeks for your request to become effective. > If you have any questions about the American Express Internet Privacy Statement > or Opt Out, you can reach us at 1-800-AXP-1234 or you may send us an > email > > Please Note: You may set email preferences for an additional email address now, or return to the set Email Preferences page at any time to set preferences for other email addresses. From jbone at deepfile.com Fri Jun 6 15:56:22 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: Republican Kiddie pR0n In-Reply-To: <3EE0C16C.6050503@endeavors.com> Message-ID: On Friday, Jun 6, 2003, at 11:29 US/Central, Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote: > Yer confusing lens and viewer, subject and object. > > The point being that porn is "I know it when > I see it." I was making fun of Jeff in that > I saw the picture and thought "child tax credit". > Jeff say the picture and thought "k___ p___" > > What does that say about the way he thinks? Actually, I was passing along a Daily Show bit... jb From tomwhore at slack.net Fri Jun 6 16:59:57 2003 From: tomwhore at slack.net (Tom) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: iTunes just wont be closed Message-ID: iTunes users realized early on they could use thier new gizmos to share music with others. Jobs quick to answer the call for DRM on his devices upgraded away that possibilit, or so he thought. Seems some Apple users wont drink the koolaid. There is an old yiddish phrase that goes..Shit on them and make em think its jelly...Yea, thats the biz I want to support. from boingboing.... "iCommune creator Jim Speth tells BoingBoing: "Well, I whipped up a crappy little application called 401(ok) that combines a few hacks to restore internet-wide sharing to iTunes 4.0.1. I know I really liked the ability to access *my* music from anywhere, and I didn't like that the 4.0.1 update removed that feature. Steve giveth, and Steve taketh away. You can download it here. I made it as quickly as I could, and it could use a lot of improvement. I'll make it better if people think the basic functionality is worthwhile." Why is this rad? Read Cory's 05/27/02 post about Apple's removal of the share feature: Apple force-feeds customers shit, calls it sunshine. " http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/icommune/401ok-0.1.sit?download http://boingboing.net/2003_05_01_archive.html#200349509 From tomwhore at slack.net Fri Jun 6 17:16:19 2003 From: tomwhore at slack.net (Tom) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: Rushkoff make my head hurt Message-ID: So im listening to NPR and Im going about my day and then I hear him say something that made my head hurt....In the face of the Egyptian relgion Jeudism was created as an open source religion, a religion that would let the users work the code and network better. Then gOd made my radio get all staticy and I cant tune it back in..bizzare. I think this is the interview http://www.technation.com:8080/ramgen/052003_1.rm but since my work is all about blocking I cant be sure. -tomwsmf From joe at barrera.org Fri Jun 6 14:29:56 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: Rushkoff make my head hurt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EE0F9C4.8060205@barrera.org> Tom wrote: > Then gOd made my radio get all staticy and I cant tune it back in..bizzare. I assumed it was just VALIS blocking the signal. From beberg at mithral.com Fri Jun 6 19:26:25 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: Oracle bids for PeopleSoft? Opportunity for Beberg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4A8E54B2-9876-11D7-A931-003065DAE704@mithral.com> On Friday, June 6, 2003, at 12:22 PM, Mr. FoRK wrote: > Good lord, after this there will be such a drought of customer > satisfaction, > it may create huge opportunities for small/mid-size software companies. It's a hostile bid, and those rarely work out. And they are just doing it to muck up the PeopleSoft+JDE, that at least is clear. But PeopleSoft has their corp structure done right, so they are 99% hostile proof, and the JDE deal can actually be turned into a poison pill in less then 30 days. All 3 are in the same market, with completely incompatible products, so if there are any mergers, the only real effect will be thousands more unemployed geeks, and lots of annoyed customers. Of course no matter who merges there will be mass layoffs. But PostgreSQL will take care of that nasty Oracle problem soon enough, so don't worry, be happy ;) - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From beberg at mithral.com Fri Jun 6 19:59:44 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:03 2003 Subject: What the market really measures... Cringely on SCO / Linux In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030606113156.031ec1e0@techdirt.com> Message-ID: On Friday, June 6, 2003, at 01:59 PM, Mike Masnick wrote: > Since the company can always offer more stock for sale, the share > price is very much an indication of how well people believe the > company is performing and how much it's worth. It's the meter that > determines how much more money they can raise, if they need to, as > well as how much the company is valued at in a merger/acquisition. > Since such things have a direct impact on the control of management, > I'd say that the stock price has an awful lot to do with the > performance of the company. The sheer number of companies that trade below cash when the market is down, or companies with no profits at all that are valued in the billions when the market is up give plenty of evidence that that's not the case. A trader makes money when the stock moves, it doesn't matter which direction it just has to stay volatile. If it doesn't move around then the stock is actually completely worthless. The stock market is a survival of the fittest, not the fittest companies but the fittest stock. The most valuable stock is the stock thats _moving_ the fastest. A huge company like GE can gain a few percent a year, but some small stock can double or half in no time, so it's a far more "fit" stock. If you just want safe returns, that's what bonds and dividend stocks are for. Issuing more stock to raise money is ALWAYS the method of last resort. But the stock price can keep a company from getting sold, the buyer has to wait for the stock to move to the value they want to pay for the company. Plenty of legal ways to make that happen tho ;) You're right about one thing tho, explaining the markets is very easy. Find a stock that's moving, buy low, sell high (not necessarily in that order) and if you got the order wrong bail and repeat. It _IS_ that simple. - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From gbolcer at endeavors.com Fri Jun 6 18:40:26 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: Oracle bids for PeopleSoft? Opportunity for Beberg References: <4A8E54B2-9876-11D7-A931-003065DAE704@mithral.com> Message-ID: <3EE1347A.1000509@endeavors.com> I think you mean Microsoft CRM Outlook and Exchange extensions will take care of that. It's the thing that caused this whole stir in the first place. Imagine being caught between Oracle for the high end and Microsoft for the low end of the market. Not a pretty place to be. Greg Adam L Beberg wrote: > But PostgreSQL will take care of that nasty Oracle problem soon enough, > so don't worry, be happy ;) > > - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com > http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ > > -- Gregory Alan Bolcer, CTO | work: +1.949.833.2800 gbolcer at endeavors.com | http://endeavors.com Endeavors Technology, Inc.| cell: +1.714.928.5476 From elias at cse.ucsc.edu Fri Jun 6 18:50:42 2003 From: elias at cse.ucsc.edu (Elias Sinderson) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: Oracle bids for PeopleSoft? Opportunity for Beberg References: <4A8E54B2-9876-11D7-A931-003065DAE704@mithral.com> <3EE1347A.1000509@endeavors.com> Message-ID: <3EE136E2.405@cse.ucsc.edu> Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote: > [...] Imagine being caught between Oracle for the high end and > Microsoft for the low end of the market. Not a pretty place to be. Sounds great to me - all you have to do is basically tread water long enough for one of them to acquire you, then retire where land is cheap and the climate mild. :-) Elias From mike at techdirt.com Fri Jun 6 18:56:53 2003 From: mike at techdirt.com (Mike Masnick) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: What the market really measures... Cringely on SCO / Linux In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030606113156.031ec1e0@techdirt.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030606175421.031c5948@techdirt.com> At 06:59 PM 6/6/2003 -0500, Adam L Beberg wrote: >You're right about one thing tho, explaining the markets is very easy. >Find a stock that's moving, buy low, sell high (not necessarily in that >order) and if you got the order wrong bail and repeat. It _IS_ that simple. Stunning that you haven't been able to use this "simple" system to your advantage then. Why were you looking for venture funding when you could just fund the whole damn thing yourself with the gains you've made from understanding the stock market? In fact, why bother funding anything, why not just make money from your superior understanding of how markets work? Mike From beberg at mithral.com Fri Jun 6 22:58:44 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: What the market really measures... Cringely on SCO / Linux In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030606175421.031c5948@techdirt.com> Message-ID: On Friday, June 6, 2003, at 07:56 PM, Mike Masnick wrote: > Stunning that you haven't been able to use this "simple" system to > your advantage then. Why were you looking for venture funding when > you could just fund the whole damn thing yourself with the gains > you've made from understanding the stock market? In fact, why bother > funding anything, why not just make money from your superior > understanding of how markets work? I did for a while. Was averaging a 1-2% gain per day. Then I had a wisdom tooth pulled, had an EXTREMELY severe reaction to the drugs, and stopped doing that :) I'd do things like air traffic controller or bomb squad before I'd trade again. Besides the days of the private trader are gone, most jumps now happen overnight. You need inside information to know about them, and access to the overnight markets to act on the info. - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From geege at barrera.org Sat Jun 7 01:03:01 2003 From: geege at barrera.org (geege) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: panicked parents pick a peck of penicillin (was RE: Republican Kiddie pR0n In-Reply-To: <3EE0CD49.1040107@endeavors.com> Message-ID: i think the variable is treatment, not exposure. less of the first rather than more of the second. (wash those hands, buckaroo!) -----Original Message----- From: fork-bounces@xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces@xent.com]On Behalf Of Gregory Alan Bolcer Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 10:20 AM To: fork@xent.com Subject: Re: Republican Kiddie pR0n There's actually a philosophy that more exposure leads to less sickness over the course of childhood due to the body's ability to build up immunities. Greg Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > Elias Sinderson wrote: > >> And I saw the picture and immediately thought "OMG, who would ever let >> their nekkid baby roll around in all that filthy money!" Seriously, >> paper bills are far from sterile - exposing an infant to that risk is >> reprehensible... yuk. > > > And yet, infants are far from sterile - exposing currency to that risk > is reprehensible... yuk. > > - Joe :-) > > > -- Gregory Alan Bolcer, CTO | work: +1.949.833.2800 gbolcer at endeavors.com | http://endeavors.com Endeavors Technology, Inc.| cell: +1.714.928.5476 From geege at barrera.org Sat Jun 7 10:16:04 2003 From: geege at barrera.org (geege@barrera.org) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: NYTimes.com Article: Finding a Way Out With North Korea Message-ID: <20030607131604.66674848E@web39t.prvt.nytimes.com> This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by geege@barrera.org. not likely under this administration, who (inscrutably) applies worst case scenarios wrt military threat and best case wrt to economic. woe, the asian worm may turn, rolling its largesse over arrogance. geege geege@barrera.org /-------------------- advertisement -----------------------\ Explore more of Starbucks at Starbucks.com. http://www.starbucks.com/default.asp?ci=1015 \----------------------------------------------------------/ Finding a Way Out With North Korea June 7, 2003 Is United States policy easing or heightening tensions on the Korean peninsula? Selig S. Harrison, the director of the Asia Program at the Center for International Policy and the author of "Korean Endgame: A Strategy for Reunification and U.S. Disengagement" (Princeton University Press, 2002), speaks with Felicia R. Lee about the latest developments. Q Was it a good idea for the United States to agree two days ago to pull back American forces from the demilitarized zone that separates North and South Korea? I think they're doing the right thing for the wrong reasons and in the wrong way. It's long overdue to do this because the threat of another North Korean attack on the South, as in 1950, is remote. North Korea is in such bad shape economically that it could not sustain a protracted war. North Korean forces are forward-deployed at the DMZ to deter us, to make an American pre-emptive strike unacceptably costly, not to attack the South again. Also, it's desirable for the United States to end its role as a "tripwire," so that we're not automatically involved. But the reasons they're pulling back are the wrong ones. The Pentagon wants to get American forces out of harm's way in order to have greater flexibility when and if they decide on military action against North Korea. They're doing this in the context of a confrontational American posture toward North Korea, which is unfortunate. The right way to pull back American forces would have been as part of a policy of improving relations with the North. We should have traded American pullbacks for Korean pullbacks. How do you think North Korea will react to this? They'll be very suspicious that it is connected to possible future military action against them. They will read it in the context of the current talk in Washington about promoting regime change or a collapse in North Korea and the unwillingness of the United States to negotiate about their economic and security concerns in return for an end to their nuclear program. What about the South Korean reaction? There are mixed feelings in the South. The government is afraid that any change in the status quo will affect the stock market and the influx of foreign investment by giving the impression of an unstable security situation. But the younger generation wants a gradual American disengagement. They see the present American diplomatic confrontation with the North and the presence of the American forces as obstacles to improved North-South relations and eventual reunification. If the impression grows that this is indeed designed to give the United States greater flexibility, with an eye to military action, then the reaction will be very negative. Still, you are optimistic that the North Korean leadership can be convinced to refrain from building more nuclear weapons? I think they're ready to dismantle their nuclear program under adequate inspections if we're prepared to pay what they consider an acceptable price. First, we'd have to join in a bilateral or multilateral agreement pledging not to use our nuclear weapons against North Korea, an agreement that would have to be linked to a de-nuclearization process. Second, we'd have to pledge not to pursue the policy of regime change that President Bush has made clear is his preferred approach to North Korea. Third, we'd have to be prepared for large-scale energy and food aid. If we pursue pressure tactics that they would view as designed to overthrow the present regime, they are certain to respond either militarily or through other retaliation such as selling nuclear material to anti-American third parties. Do you agree with some analysts who argue that North Korea's recent behavior and threatening statements have alienated China, which was previously sympathetic to their cause? I think China is equally disgusted with the United States and North Korea and will exercise pressure on both countries to change their present policies. I'm sure they're telling the North Koreans not to threaten us. But they've made it very clear that they believe the United States should be willing to trade commitment to North Korea relating to its military and economic security in exchange for verifiable dismantlement of its nuclear program. I think China is insisting that the United States conclude a bilateral security agreement with North Korea and would be prepared for a multilateral, six-power agreement involving the United States, China, Russia, Japan, South Korea and North Korea. The external powers would commit themselves not to deploy nuclear weapons in Korea. And the two Koreas would pledge not to make nuclear weapons. This would require inspection machinery centering on, but not limited to, the International Atomic Energy Agency. My own view is that such a six-power de-nuclearization is the most promising way to resolve the current crisis because it would not require the Bush administration to give a bilateral security guarantee to North Korea. The administration has refused to do that, but some form of security assurance to North Korea is required. We cannot expect North Korea to give up its nuclear options if we continue to maintain our "nuclear umbrella" and assert our right to pre-emptive military strikes. What has been the impact of the American victory in Iraq on North Korea? There is no question that the lesson that the North Koreans have learned from Iraq is that it needs a nuclear deterrent. The American unilateralism reflected in Iraq and in many other ways is alienating the United States from China, Russia, South Korea and Japan. We could end up with the worst of both worlds - a nuclear North Korea and estranged relations with countries important to us globally as well as regionally. Contrary to the expectations of many policymakers, you argue that North Korea is not about to collapse. Why? Not only is North Korea more effectively insulated from outside influences than the countries of Eastern Europe, but it also has a nationalist mystique and a Confucian historical legacy that makes its totalitarian system more broadly accepted than was the case in Eastern Europe. The late Kim Il Sung is revered as the George Washington of his country. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/07/arts/07QNA.html?ex=1055991764&ei=1&en=95f76fa2d8907bf6 --------------------------------- Get Home Delivery of The New York Times Newspaper. Imagine reading The New York Times any time & anywhere you like! Leisurely catch up on events & expand your horizons. Enjoy now for 50% off Home Delivery! Click here: http://www.nytimes.com/ads/nytcirc/index.html HOW TO ADVERTISE --------------------------------- For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help@nytimes.com. Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company From deafbox at hotmail.com Sat Jun 7 14:25:55 2003 From: deafbox at hotmail.com (Russell Turpin) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: Has Bush committed an impeachable offense? Message-ID: http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/06/findlaw.analysis.dean.wmd/ Short excerpts from the article linked above: "If the Bush Administration intentionally manipulated or misrepresented intelligence to get Congress to authorize, and the public to support, military action to take control of Iraq, then that would be a monstrous misdeed. .. Manipulation or deliberate misuse of national security intelligence data, if proven, could be 'a high crime' under the Constitution's impeachment clause. It would also be a violation of federal criminal law, including the broad federal anti-conspiracy statute, which renders it a felony 'to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose.'" _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From owen at permafrost.net Sat Jun 7 11:44:29 2003 From: owen at permafrost.net (Owen Byrne) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: Has Bush committed an impeachable offense? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EE1EC3D.3030309@permafrost.net> Russell Turpin wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/06/findlaw.analysis.dean.wmd/ > > Short excerpts from the article linked above: "If > the Bush Administration intentionally manipulated > or misrepresented intelligence to get Congress to > authorize, and the public to support, military action > to take control of Iraq, then that would be a > monstrous misdeed. .. Manipulation or deliberate > misuse of national security intelligence data, if > proven, could be 'a high crime' under the > Constitution's impeachment clause. It would also > be a violation of federal criminal law, including > the broad federal anti-conspiracy statute, which > renders it a felony 'to defraud the United States, > or any agency thereof in any manner or for any > purpose.'" > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > Execution would be poetic justice. Perhaps he can be ruled an "unlawful combatant." Owen http://www.pkarchive.org/column/060603.html *Duped and Betrayed* *SYNOPSIS: * According to The New Republic, Senator Zell Miller ? one of a dwindling band of Democrats who still think they can make deals with the Bush administration and its allies ? got shafted in the recent tax bill. He supported the bill in part because it contained his personal contribution: a measure requiring chief executives to take personal responsibility for corporate tax declarations. But when the bill emerged from conference, his measure had been stripped out. Will "moderates" ? the people formerly known as "conservatives" ? ever learn? Today's "conservatives" ? the people formerly known as the "radical right" ? don't think of a deal as a deal; they think of it as an opportunity to pull yet another bait and switch. Let's look at the betrayals involved in this latest tax cut. Most media attention has focused on the child tax credit that wasn't. As in 2001, the administration softened the profile of a tax cut mainly aimed at the wealthy by including a credit for families with children. But at the last minute, a change in wording deprived 12 million children of some or all of that tax credit. "There are a lot of things that are more important than that," declared Tom DeLay, the House majority leader. (Maybe he was thinking of the "Hummer deduction," which stayed in the bill: business owners may now deduct up to $100,000 for the cost of a vehicle, as long as it weighs at least 6,000 pounds.) Less attention has been paid to fine print that reveals the supposed rationale for the dividend tax cut as a smoke screen. The problem, we were told, is that profits are taxed twice: once when they are earned, a second time when they are paid out as dividends. But as any tax expert will tell you, the corporate tax law is full of loopholes; many profitable corporations pay little or no taxes. The original Bush plan ensured that dividends from such companies would not get a tax break. But those safeguards vanished from the final bill: dividends will get special treatment regardless of how much tax is paid by the company that issues them. This little change has two big consequences. First, as Glenn Hubbard, the former chairman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers and the author of the original plan, delicately puts it, "It's hard to get a lot of progressivity at the top." Translation: wealthy individuals who get most of their income from dividends and capital gains will often end up paying lower tax rates than ordinary Americans who work for a living. Second, the tax cut ? originally billed as a way to reduce abuses ? may well usher in a golden age of tax evasion. We can be sure that lawyers and accountants are already figuring out how to disguise income that should be taxed at a 35 percent rate as dividends that are taxed at only 15 percent. Since there's no need to show that tax was ever paid on profits, tax shelters should be easy to construct. Of course, the big betrayal was George W. Bush's decision to push this tax cut in the first place. There is no longer any doubt that the man who ran as a moderate in the 2000 election is actually a radical who wants to undo much of the Great Society and the New Deal. Look at it this way: as the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities points out, this latest tax cut reduces federal revenue as a share of G.D.P. to its lowest level since 1959. That is, federal taxes are now back to what they were in an era when Medicare and Medicaid didn't exist, and Social Security was still a minor expense. How can we maintain these programs, which have become essential to scores of millions of Americans, at today's tax rates? We can't. Grover Norquist, the right-wing ideologue who has become one of the most powerful men in Washington, once declared: "I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub." Mr. Bush has made a pretty good start on that plan. Which brings us back to Senator Miller, and all those politicians and pundits who still imagine that there is room for compromise, that they can find some bipartisan middle ground. Mr. Norquist was recently quoted in The Denver Post with the answer to that: "Bipartisanship is another name for date rape." From beberg at mithral.com Sat Jun 7 09:59:16 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: Has Bush committed an impeachable offense? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <39E4C776-98F0-11D7-A7D0-003065DAE704@mithral.com> On Saturday, June 7, 2003, at 08:25 AM, Russell Turpin wrote: > Short excerpts from the article linked above: "If > the Bush Administration intentionally manipulated > or misrepresented intelligence to get Congress to > authorize, and the public to support, military action > to take control of Iraq, then that would be a > monstrous misdeed. .. Manipulation or deliberate > misuse of national security intelligence data, if > proven, could be 'a high crime' under the > Constitution's impeachment clause. It would also > be a violation of federal criminal law, including > the broad federal anti-conspiracy statute, which > renders it a felony 'to defraud the United States, > or any agency thereof in any manner or for any > purpose.'" So? Impeachment takes a simple majority in the house and 2/3 vote in the senate and the republicans control all of the above (and the courts for good measure), that's not exactly possible now is it. I think the people with money (both parties really, running for any national office takes 5M+ now) have now reached some kind of "critical mass" where no matter what happens, they can ignore anyone that contributes less then 50k to their campaign. The latest "tax cut" where they lowered Warren Buffett's taxes to 3% and completely forgot the poor makes that very clear. A bill is flying through now fixing it with a child tax credit, but because the republicans aren't really making a fuss, the democrats aren't getting any boost from it, haha. No republican can be removed from office except by death. Viva la Revolution! Of course the mention os the words "united states" now sends something like 60% of people in the rest of the world screaming in terror. Lucky for us the same polls show that basically all of those people blame our government not we the people. - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From owen at permafrost.net Sat Jun 7 12:41:24 2003 From: owen at permafrost.net (Owen Byrne) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: Has Bush committed an impeachable offense? In-Reply-To: <39E4C776-98F0-11D7-A7D0-003065DAE704@mithral.com> References: <39E4C776-98F0-11D7-A7D0-003065DAE704@mithral.com> Message-ID: <3EE1F994.5040105@permafrost.net> > > > I think the people with money (both parties really, running for any > national office takes 5M+ now) have now reached some kind of "critical > mass" where no matter what happens, they can ignore anyone that > contributes less then 50k to their campaign. The latest "tax cut" > where they lowered Warren Buffett's taxes to 3% and completely forgot > the poor makes that very clear. A bill is flying through now fixing it > with a child tax credit, but because the republicans aren't really > making a fuss, the democrats aren't getting any boost from it, haha. > > No republican can be removed from office except by death. Viva la > Revolution! Its called "fascism" - you forgot to mention the incarceration rate. > > Of course the mention os the words "united states" now sends something > like 60% of people in the rest of the world screaming in terror. Lucky > for us the same polls show that basically all of those people blame > our government not we the people. Nahh. The one bright spot about the Iraq war was how incompetent the American armed forces appeared. Clearly a paper tiger. Owen From joe at barrera.org Sat Jun 7 09:52:12 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: Has Bush committed an impeachable offense? In-Reply-To: <3EE1F994.5040105@permafrost.net> References: <39E4C776-98F0-11D7-A7D0-003065DAE704@mithral.com> <3EE1F994.5040105@permafrost.net> Message-ID: <3EE20A2C.2090700@barrera.org> Owen Byrne wrote: > Nahh. The one bright spot about the Iraq war was how incompetent the > American armed forces appeared. Clearly a paper tiger. Huh? Do you want to explain that? - Joe From deafbox at hotmail.com Sat Jun 7 17:26:14 2003 From: deafbox at hotmail.com (Russell Turpin) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: Has Bush committed an impeachable offense? Message-ID: Owen Byrne: >.. The one bright spot about the Iraq war was how >incompetent the American armed forces appeared. Really? Most pundits were predicting a long war with large numbers of civilian casualties. The US military took Iraq in a few weeks, suffering a remarkably low number of casualties, and causing a remarkably low number of civilian deaths. No, it didn't go perfectly. Wars never do. But from a military viewpoint, I think it went quite well. I doubt any of the governments in the mideast view the US military as a paper tiger. If anything, I think the world was surprised at the ease with which the US conquered Afghanistan and Iraq. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From joe at barrera.org Sat Jun 7 11:58:08 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: Free Turds for Everyone Message-ID: <3EE227B0.8010307@barrera.org> I'm guessing they're talking about BOINC (http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/setifuture.html#boinc) ------ Forwarded Message From: "Peter G. Neumann" Reply-To: "Peter G. Neumann" Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 9:55:37 PDT To: open-source@csl.sri.com Subject: [open-source] DISTRIBUTED COMPUTING MADE EASY (NewsScan Daily, 6 June 2003) DISTRIBUTED COMPUTING MADE EASY Berkeley scientist David Anderson has devised a cheaper and easier way to write distributed computing software, paving the way for more projects that rely on the combined power of millions of idle computers to seek solutions to some of life's mysteries -- such as a cure for cancer or whether there's extraterrestrial life out there. About a dozen research projects now depend on distributed computing, but up until now the software needed to exploit the unused power of volunteers' PCs has been expensive and time-consuming to create. Anderson's open-source software will eliminate those barriers. "The more projects that start using distributed computing the more people will be interested in lending their computers for research," says Anderson.(Popular Science Jun 2003) http://www.popsci.com/popsci/computers/article/0,12543,454648,00.html NewsScan Daily, 6 June 2003 From joe at barrera.org Sat Jun 7 12:01:23 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: Free Turds for Everyone In-Reply-To: <3EE227B0.8010307@barrera.org> References: <3EE227B0.8010307@barrera.org> Message-ID: <3EE22873.9000908@barrera.org> Here's a better BOINC URL: http://boinc.ssl.berkeley.edu/ Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > I'm guessing they're talking about BOINC > (http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/setifuture.html#boinc) From gtn at rbii.com Sat Jun 7 15:44:36 2003 From: gtn at rbii.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: Mac, Python, and the Browser as GUI Toolkit In-Reply-To: <41FE6978-95F7-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> References: <41FE6978-95F7-11D7-9861-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> Message-ID: <200306071444.36891.gtn@rbii.com> On Tuesday 03 June 2003 03:12 pm, Jeff Bone wrote: > My needs are rather > simple in regards to the latter, though I've begrudgingly allowed > myself to be convinced over time that there's almost nothing at all > that you might want to do GUI-wise in a desktop that absolutely cannot > be done in DHTML. Granted, DHTML solutions to things like e.g. > interactive drawing / graphing are complex, idiosyncratic, and often > slow... but it *can* be done. An awful lot depends on the tools used to generate/manage the DHTML. Things like JSP, ASP, PHP et al. suck to develop in, and suck to maintain. So many levels of syntax down... (javascript, html, jsp, java, generating javascript and html is common). Worse, the browsers are all a bit different and suck differently. From gtn at rbii.com Sat Jun 7 15:48:42 2003 From: gtn at rbii.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: LoC, metrics, complexity, dev mgmt was Re: Expressivity of Python (ramblings) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200306071448.42176.gtn@rbii.com> On Tuesday 03 June 2003 03:29 pm, Jeff Bone wrote: > IMHO, LoC is a rough but almost always usefully approximate measure > lots of things of interest when managing a development process. Yep, especially in terms of bug count and final shipping date. One you see the LOC firm up, you have a pretty good idea of how much *more* time it'll take. > Another fun one is the geometry of an inheritance hierarchy Dead givaway. If you see inheritance heirarchies or interface heirarchies that are feature too much incest, you know you're doomed. A good rule of the thumb for interfaces is that if you need to document the interfaces, it's wrong. From gtn at rbii.com Sat Jun 7 15:57:43 2003 From: gtn at rbii.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: Rogue AOL Subsidiary Leader to Resign In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200306071457.43499.gtn@rbii.com> On Wednesday 04 June 2003 04:30 am, Adam L Beberg wrote: > Gnutella's ass-backwards protocol resulted in thousands of clogged > networks, many annoyed sysadmins, and less real work getting done. Truly one of the worste things I'd even seen in P2P systems... worse than the first one I wrote back in the 80's even ;-) > Frankel is a horrible coder and a thief. I don't know about him, but I know the guy that had to port WinAmp to the Mac, and he said he had to basically rewrite it. From gbolcer at endeavors.com Sat Jun 7 13:15:46 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: Oracle bids for PeopleSoft? Opportunity for Beberg References: <4A8E54B2-9876-11D7-A931-003065DAE704@mithral.com> <3EE1347A.1000509@endeavors.com> <3EE136E2.405@cse.ucsc.edu> Message-ID: <3EE239E2.C82ED29D@endeavors.com> Elias Sinderson wrote: > > Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote: > > > [...] Imagine being caught between Oracle for the high end and > > Microsoft for the low end of the market. Not a pretty place to be. > > Sounds great to me - all you have to do is basically tread water long > enough for one of them to acquire you, then retire where land is cheap > and the climate mild. :-) > > Elias I think the law of eroding value gets in the way--unfortunately. Greg From gbolcer at endeavors.com Sat Jun 7 13:24:50 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: Ebay Javascript Message-ID: <3EE23C02.E3EFDBCD@endeavors.com> Every Ebay page includes some small snippet of javascript that crashed my Netscape 4.79 Irix browser. If I turn javascript off, then everything works fine. Gawd, if there's one thing I hate worse than Flash then it's crappy javascript. Greg From joe at barrera.org Sat Jun 7 13:22:09 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: Ebay Javascript In-Reply-To: <3EE23C02.E3EFDBCD@endeavors.com> References: <3EE23C02.E3EFDBCD@endeavors.com> Message-ID: <3EE23B61.9040505@barrera.org> Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote: > Gawd, if there's one thing I hate > worse than Flash then it's crappy javascript. What about crappy browsers? - Joe :-) From louie at ximian.com Sat Jun 7 17:57:25 2003 From: louie at ximian.com (Luis Villa) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: Has Bush committed an impeachable offense? In-Reply-To: <3EE1EC3D.3030309@permafrost.net> References: <3EE1EC3D.3030309@permafrost.net> Message-ID: <1055019444.28963.5031.camel@marvin.boston.ximian.com> Had Clinton done it, there would have at least been a trial. As it is, the Democrats are so pathetically disorganized they won't even publicly criticize it, much less call for impeachment. Pathetic. Luis On Sat, 2003-06-07 at 09:44, Owen Byrne wrote: > Russell Turpin wrote: > > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/06/findlaw.analysis.dean.wmd/ > > > > Short excerpts from the article linked above: "If > > the Bush Administration intentionally manipulated > > or misrepresented intelligence to get Congress to > > authorize, and the public to support, military action > > to take control of Iraq, then that would be a > > monstrous misdeed. .. Manipulation or deliberate > > misuse of national security intelligence data, if > > proven, could be 'a high crime' under the > > Constitution's impeachment clause. It would also > > be a violation of federal criminal law, including > > the broad federal anti-conspiracy statute, which > > renders it a felony 'to defraud the United States, > > or any agency thereof in any manner or for any > > purpose.'" > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > Execution would be poetic justice. Perhaps he can be ruled an "unlawful > combatant." > > Owen > > http://www.pkarchive.org/column/060603.html > > > > *Duped and Betrayed* > > *SYNOPSIS: * > > According to The New Republic, Senator Zell Miller — one of a dwindling > band of Democrats who still think they can make deals with the Bush > administration and its allies — got shafted in the recent tax bill. He > supported the bill in part because it contained his personal > contribution: a measure requiring chief executives to take personal > responsibility for corporate tax declarations. But when the bill emerged > from conference, his measure had been stripped out. > > Will "moderates" — the people formerly known as "conservatives" — ever > learn? Today's "conservatives" — the people formerly known as the > "radical right" — don't think of a deal as a deal; they think of it as > an opportunity to pull yet another bait and switch. > > Let's look at the betrayals involved in this latest tax cut. > > Most media attention has focused on the child tax credit that wasn't. As > in 2001, the administration softened the profile of a tax cut mainly > aimed at the wealthy by including a credit for families with children. > But at the last minute, a change in wording deprived 12 million children > of some or all of that tax credit. "There are a lot of things that are > more important than that," declared Tom DeLay, the House majority > leader. (Maybe he was thinking of the "Hummer deduction," which stayed > in the bill: business owners may now deduct up to $100,000 for the cost > of a vehicle, as long as it weighs at least 6,000 pounds.) > > Less attention has been paid to fine print that reveals the supposed > rationale for the dividend tax cut as a smoke screen. The problem, we > were told, is that profits are taxed twice: once when they are earned, a > second time when they are paid out as dividends. But as any tax expert > will tell you, the corporate tax law is full of loopholes; many > profitable corporations pay little or no taxes. > > The original Bush plan ensured that dividends from such companies would > not get a tax break. But those safeguards vanished from the final bill: > dividends will get special treatment regardless of how much tax is paid > by the company that issues them. > > This little change has two big consequences. First, as Glenn Hubbard, > the former chairman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers and > the author of the original plan, delicately puts it, "It's hard to get a > lot of progressivity at the top." > > Translation: wealthy individuals who get most of their income from > dividends and capital gains will often end up paying lower tax rates > than ordinary Americans who work for a living. > > Second, the tax cut — originally billed as a way to reduce abuses — may > well usher in a golden age of tax evasion. We can be sure that lawyers > and accountants are already figuring out how to disguise income that > should be taxed at a 35 percent rate as dividends that are taxed at only > 15 percent. Since there's no need to show that tax was ever paid on > profits, tax shelters should be easy to construct. > > Of course, the big betrayal was George W. Bush's decision to push this > tax cut in the first place. There is no longer any doubt that the man > who ran as a moderate in the 2000 election is actually a radical who > wants to undo much of the Great Society and the New Deal. > > Look at it this way: as the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities > points out, this latest tax cut reduces federal revenue as a share of > G.D.P. to its lowest level since 1959. That is, federal taxes are now > back to what they were in an era when Medicare and Medicaid didn't > exist, and Social Security was still a minor expense. How can we > maintain these programs, which have become essential to scores of > millions of Americans, at today's tax rates? We can't. > > Grover Norquist, the right-wing ideologue who has become one of the most > powerful men in Washington, once declared: "I don't want to abolish > government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it > into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub." Mr. Bush has made a > pretty good start on that plan. > > Which brings us back to Senator Miller, and all those politicians and > pundits who still imagine that there is room for compromise, that they > can find some bipartisan middle ground. Mr. Norquist was recently quoted > in The Denver Post with the answer to that: "Bipartisanship is another > name for date rape." > > > > > > From louie at ximian.com Sat Jun 7 18:13:43 2003 From: louie at ximian.com (Luis Villa) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: Ebay Javascript In-Reply-To: <3EE23C02.E3EFDBCD@endeavors.com> References: <3EE23C02.E3EFDBCD@endeavors.com> Message-ID: <1055020423.28963.5078.camel@marvin.boston.ximian.com> On Sat, 2003-06-07 at 15:24, Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote: > Every Ebay page includes some small snippet of > javascript that crashed my Netscape 4.79 Irix > browser. If I turn javascript off, then everything > works fine. Gawd, if there's one thing I hate > worse than Flash then it's crappy javascript. So, maybe I'm a dumbass, but one of the things worse than flash or even crappy javascript is people who run ancient, unmaintained software and then expect the rest of the world to work around their brokenness. ftp://oss.sgi.com/projects/mozilla/download/irix Here's a tarball, call someone who cares. Luis From joe at barrera.org Sat Jun 7 16:36:47 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: desperate lyrics request Message-ID: <3EE268FF.10704@barrera.org> Okay, does anyone have the lyrics to Ultra Vivid Scene's _Rev_? - Joe From baisley at alumni.rice.edu Sat Jun 7 18:53:49 2003 From: baisley at alumni.rice.edu (Wayne Baisley) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: desperate lyrics request References: <3EE268FF.10704@barrera.org> Message-ID: <3EE26CFD.3080904@alumni.rice.edu> http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/5901/revlyrics.html You turn to ... turn in ... and you drop out ... Infected Mushroom Cheers, Wayne From baisley at alumni.rice.edu Sat Jun 7 18:56:08 2003 From: baisley at alumni.rice.edu (Wayne Baisley) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: desperate lyrics request References: <3EE268FF.10704@barrera.org> <3EE26CFD.3080904@alumni.rice.edu> Message-ID: <3EE26D88.4060906@alumni.rice.edu> Sorry, that should have been > You turn to ... TUNE in ... and you drop out ... > Infected Mushroom From the new Converting Vegetarians double CD. From joe at barrera.org Sat Jun 7 16:59:26 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: desperate lyrics request In-Reply-To: <3EE26CFD.3080904@alumni.rice.edu> References: <3EE268FF.10704@barrera.org> <3EE26CFD.3080904@alumni.rice.edu> Message-ID: <3EE26E4E.8010205@barrera.org> Wayne Baisley wrote: > You turn to ... turn in ... and you drop out ... > Infected Mushroom But does it justify the cure? - Joe P.S. Thanks, Wayne. From gtn at rbii.com Sat Jun 7 22:18:19 2003 From: gtn at rbii.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:04 2003 Subject: Rogue AOL Subsidiary Leader to Resign In-Reply-To: <200306071457.43499.gtn@rbii.com> References: <200306071457.43499.gtn@rbii.com> Message-ID: <200306072118.19725.gtn@rbii.com> On Saturday 07 June 2003 02:57 pm, Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote: > > Frankel is a horrible coder and a thief. > > I don't know about him, but I know the guy that had to port WinAmp to the > Mac, and he said he had to basically rewrite it. Actually, that might have been MusicMatch. From beberg at mithral.com Sat Jun 7 21:34:07 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Free Turds for Everyone In-Reply-To: <3EE227B0.8010307@barrera.org> Message-ID: <4BA10522-9951-11D7-8A2F-003065DAE704@mithral.com> On Saturday, June 7, 2003, at 12:58 PM, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > I'm guessing they're talking about BOINC > (http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/setifuture.html#boinc) *chuckles* Yeap. Only 2-3 years after everyone else released their SDK's to do it, for free. There are hundreds of them now, most with more features relevant to the task, for free. Unfortunately nobody told David. But if you want to send a 800 pound gorilla to do an ant's job, and need all the buzzwords, even the ones that have nothing to do with getting work done, BOINC is for you. Everyone I've talked to that's done serious evaluations of it is saying the same. But what do I know, all my projects have actually found what they were looking for, and are still spewing out published research. - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From joe at barrera.org Sat Jun 7 19:48:04 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Free Turds for Everyone In-Reply-To: <4BA10522-9951-11D7-8A2F-003065DAE704@mithral.com> References: <4BA10522-9951-11D7-8A2F-003065DAE704@mithral.com> Message-ID: <3EE295D4.903@barrera.org> Okay. Do you want to explain to me what Cosm does that BOINC doesn't/won't? Use small words because I'm easily confused. - Joe From beberg at mithral.com Sat Jun 7 21:51:30 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Ebay Javascript In-Reply-To: <3EE23C02.E3EFDBCD@endeavors.com> Message-ID: On Saturday, June 7, 2003, at 02:24 PM, Gregory Alan Bolcer wrote: > Every Ebay page includes some small snippet of > javascript that crashed my Netscape 4.79 Irix > browser. If I turn javascript off, then everything > works fine. Gawd, if there's one thing I hate > worse than Flash then it's crappy javascript. Why in the world would you have flash or javascript on? Flash is for ads and script is for popups. No site worth reading requires either. Reading... novel concept. Oh and I've heard of these things call jiffs that you can use for images. Sure ya can't play in-browser games without em, but so what? - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From joe at barrera.org Sat Jun 7 19:53:56 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Ebay Javascript In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EE29734.1040407@barrera.org> Adam L Beberg wrote: > No site worth reading requires either. Reading... novel concept. > Oh and I've heard of these things call jiffs that you can use for images. > > Sure ya can't play in-browser games without em, but so what? Oh, look everyone! Adam's being elitist again. Isn't that cute?!!! (Bebelugu-chan... kawaii!!! ^_^) From gtn at rbii.com Sat Jun 7 23:30:14 2003 From: gtn at rbii.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Ebay Javascript In-Reply-To: <3EE29734.1040407@barrera.org> References: <3EE29734.1040407@barrera.org> Message-ID: <200306072230.14382.gtn@rbii.com> On Saturday 07 June 2003 09:53 pm, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > (Bebelugu-chan... kawaii!!! ^_^) Bebargu Kawaii? Chotto shimpai... From beberg at mithral.com Sat Jun 7 22:52:54 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Free Turds for Everyone In-Reply-To: <3EE295D4.903@barrera.org> Message-ID: <4D1FC0B0-995C-11D7-8A2F-003065DAE704@mithral.com> On Saturday, June 7, 2003, at 08:48 PM, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > Okay. > > Do you want to explain to me what Cosm does that BOINC doesn't/won't? > > Use small words because I'm easily confused. The point is we did it 3 years ago. Back when people cared, and it wasn't built into the OS for that matter. BOINC has nothing F@h didn't have ages back. A guy with slave grad students should be working on stuff that wont be in use for another 10 years like every other researcher. But then he is at Berkeley ;) My real problem with BOINC is that he's wasting his time and the time of his slaves^H^H^H^H^H^H grad students when they could be working on NEW things. They did this back before SETI@home started too, when we told them to just spend a couple days and write a core for distributed.net, 4 years later, they are still messing around with how to get data from A to B. Of course, the fact that all the processing could be done by analog hardware at the dish in real-time with some stuff from Radio Shack (ha!) got past them too ;) And that's even more pathetic. - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From joe at barrera.org Sat Jun 7 21:09:56 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Free Turds for Everyone In-Reply-To: <4D1FC0B0-995C-11D7-8A2F-003065DAE704@mithral.com> References: <4D1FC0B0-995C-11D7-8A2F-003065DAE704@mithral.com> Message-ID: <3EE2A904.8040407@barrera.org> Adam L Beberg wrote: > The point is we did it 3 years ago. Back when people cared, and it > wasn't built into the OS for that matter. BOINC has nothing F@h didn't > have ages back. So there's nothing Cosm does that wasn't done three years ago by everyone and their free SDKs? If that's true, then why are you still spending any time on it? Why aren't you yourself doing something new? - Joe From beberg at mithral.com Sat Jun 7 23:36:30 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Free Turds for Everyone In-Reply-To: <3EE2A904.8040407@barrera.org> Message-ID: <64A2088F-9962-11D7-8A2F-003065DAE704@mithral.com> On Saturday, June 7, 2003, at 10:09 PM, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > If that's true, then why are you still spending any time on it? I'm not, the CS-SDK took 2 weeks 3 years ago, and I haven't touched it much since. > Why aren't you yourself doing something new? Wow, why didn't I think of that. I'll just do the timewarp back to 1995 and get started. Oh wait, I did that already. - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From joe at barrera.org Sat Jun 7 21:46:34 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Free Turds for Everyone In-Reply-To: <64A2088F-9962-11D7-8A2F-003065DAE704@mithral.com> References: <64A2088F-9962-11D7-8A2F-003065DAE704@mithral.com> Message-ID: <3EE2B19A.5020005@barrera.org> Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > Adam L Beberg wrote: > >> The point is we did it 3 years ago. Back when people cared, and it >> wasn't built into the OS for that matter. BOINC has nothing F@h didn't >> have ages back. > > So there's nothing Cosm does that wasn't done three years ago by everyone > and their free SDKs? > > If that's true, then why are you still spending any time on it? Adam L Beberg wrote: > On Saturday, June 7, 2003, at 10:09 PM, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > >> If that's true, then why are you still spending any time on it? > > I'm not, the CS-SDK took 2 weeks 3 years ago, and I haven't touched it > much since. I see. What about "Cosm Phase 2"? Should we still be waiting for that needle to move? Or is that just a smokescreen to fool the gullible, hiding the super-new and super-secret stuff you're really working on? I would assume that was just a stale web page, except that you've bothered to update all the copyrights to 2003, and the page claims it was last modified May 21, 2003. Can you tell me about your distributed file system, for example? - Joe From joe at barrera.org Sat Jun 7 21:49:51 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Ebay Javascript In-Reply-To: <200306072230.14382.gtn@rbii.com> References: <3EE29734.1040407@barrera.org> <200306072230.14382.gtn@rbii.com> Message-ID: <3EE2B25F.1070901@barrera.org> Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote: > Kawaii? Chotto shimpai... It was meant to be VERY disturbing. From gtn at rbii.com Sun Jun 8 01:32:52 2003 From: gtn at rbii.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Ebay Javascript In-Reply-To: <3EE2B25F.1070901@barrera.org> References: <200306072230.14382.gtn@rbii.com> <3EE2B25F.1070901@barrera.org> Message-ID: <200306080032.52164.gtn@rbii.com> On Saturday 07 June 2003 11:49 pm, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote: > > Kawaii? Chotto shimpai... > > It was meant to be VERY disturbing. Jaaa. Kawaii yori, kowai! ;-) From beberg at mithral.com Sun Jun 8 00:54:30 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Free Turds for Everyone In-Reply-To: <3EE2B19A.5020005@barrera.org> Message-ID: <49DD7835-996D-11D7-8A2F-003065DAE704@mithral.com> On Saturday, June 7, 2003, at 10:46 PM, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > I see. What about "Cosm Phase 2"? What's what this stage of devel has always been called in the plan. > last modified May 21, 2003. I moved web servers, I'm sure all the file dates got tweaked. But I'm not wasting a lot of time on the web site, since you're supposed to think nothing is going on. Keeps the open source clone army busy copying other people. > Can you tell me about your distributed file system, for example? Not till a patent is granted, nope :) But that piece is basically done, and my Mac loves it. - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From joe at barrera.org Sun Jun 8 09:58:28 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: news update Message-ID: <3EE35D24.3090908@barrera.org> "It's been 6 weeks since Saddam Hussein was killed by a pack of wild boars, and the world is still glad to be rid of him." From gbolcer at endeavors.com Sun Jun 8 12:25:13 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Ebay Javascript References: <3EE23C02.E3EFDBCD@endeavors.com> <1055020423.28963.5078.camel@marvin.boston.ximian.com> Message-ID: <3EE37F89.8D6418C0@endeavors.com> Luis Villa wrote: > > So, maybe I'm a dumbass, but one of the things worse than flash or even > crappy javascript is people who run ancient, unmaintained software and > then expect the rest of the world to work around their brokenness. > > ftp://oss.sgi.com/projects/mozilla/download/irix > > Here's a tarball, call someone who cares. > > Luis Smartass. Don't ruin a good rant. 8-) I have mozilla too, but I was waiting for the performance and scaling fixes. Plus I have this hope that if I'm 100% compliant with freeware.sgi.com, then I might just be able to eek a few more months out of this o2+ before breaking down and buying an alienware glowbox. Greg From owen at permafrost.net Sun Jun 8 19:44:09 2003 From: owen at permafrost.net (Owen Byrne) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Has Bush committed an impeachable offense? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EE3AE29.5090900@permafrost.net> Russell Turpin wrote: > Owen Byrne: > >> .. The one bright spot about the Iraq war was how >> incompetent the American armed forces appeared. > > > Really? Most pundits were predicting a long war with > large numbers of civilian casualties. The US military > took Iraq in a few weeks, suffering a remarkably > low number of casualties, and causing a remarkably > low number of civilian deaths. "Pundits" You mean retired US generals hired by CNN to pump up the drama. And the last sentence is like a word for word repetition of the official position - I can hear it on Fox news - propagation of official propaganda from the source through the media to the people. Sorry, it just makes me stop listen. It makes me think of much I heard the letters WMD a few months ago. And it was 11 years wasn't it? - not a few weeks. Wasn't the position at one point - whatever point it was convenient - that this was all one war? > > No, it didn't go perfectly. Wars never do. But from > a military viewpoint, I think it went quite well. I > doubt any of the governments in the mideast view > the US military as a paper tiger. If anything, I think > the world was surprised at the ease with which the > US conquered Afghanistan and Iraq. > I think most people watching the news and reading the papers outside the US can point to several examples of US lack of competence. "Paper tiger" might have been rhetoric, but here are a few examples of things that blew holes in the US's aura of invincibilty: The farmer with the bolt-action rifle. The whining about the Iraqis having night-vision goggles and GPS jammers gave the impression that suitably equipped armies would actually be able to resist. Cruise missiles landing in Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia. The assassination attempt late in the war - where cruise missiles aimed at a restaurant where Baath party guys were supposed to be. Destroyed the 3 houses around the restaurant but the restaurant itself was undamaged. While the callousness of the official response was probably the primary theme in press coverage, there was certainly the some questioning of "precision guidance" The arduous task and high production values of filming "Saving Private Lynch" seemingly caused the US to miss the fact that the Iraqis were trying to give her back. Most recently, the US assumption that all prisoners in Iraq were political prisoners - leading directly to looting - and leading to the ultimate irony - the looting of an Iraqi nuclear plant that the US had forgotten to secure. Conceivably leading directly to one of the things - the transfer of nuclear materials to terrorist groups - that the war was supposed to prevent. And I don't think its only me that gets the impression that US troops compare poorly to the British troops - the Brits seem like professional soldiers skilled in policing and counter-insurgency, while the US like a bunch of amateurish yahoos. See the footage of the American flag being draped over Saddam's statue for an example. Personally I watched a clip on CNN of a US soldier firing an anti-tank weapon where 3 times during a 60 second clip he asked his commanding officer "What do I do next?" It is not inconceivable to me that the embedded journalist thing will result in media consultants, focus groups, and the latest crop of reality shows along for the next war. Your next task on Fear Factor 2005 ... Just Friday we have this: http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=413196 > Command sounded out London on the possibility of sending contingents > to the American-controlled zones was because of the relative success > of British troops in policing roles. British officers feel the > aggressive actions of the Americans in some incidents resulted in > anger that may be taken out on British soldiers. Now perhaps I'm a cynic but to me - "relative success" is a polite version of "you suck" And I don't personally see any evidence of any countries in the region behaving any differently. Well - I do actually - seems to me that the opposition is stepping up - and that it seems to be aimed at the US almost entirely, rather than the British. Now to me that also fits - guerrillas always attack the weak points. To quote a friend - it took the US 2 wars and 11 years of sanctions to defeat Saddam - and Afghanistan is the lowest per-capita income country on the planet - and its not exactly pacified - the US doesn't look quite as invincible as it did in the fall. The Muslim world apparently has their own conspiracy theory on what happened - which fits in well with questioning US military invincibility ( I have seen this elsewhere): http://www.rense.com/general37/theory.htm > *Rense.com* > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > * > Iraqi War Conspiracy Theory * > By Neels Jackson > News24.com - South Africa > 4-21-3 > > *CAPE TOWN* - The rapid fall of Baghdad, after the strong initial > resistance that met American soldiers, is an indication that a secret > agreement was reached between America and the Iraqi government. > > A South African Muslim pressure group, Media Review Network (MRN), > claims that this is one of the speculations doing the rounds in the > Arabic media. > > MRN says the Arabic world is abuzz over the 'safqa' - an Arabic word > that refers to a secret arrangement. > > There are no facts to prove the existence of such a safqa, but three > results of the arrangement are apparently obvious. > > The first is that the lives of many American and British soldiers and > also that of leaders of Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party were spared. > > The second is that Baghdad, which was apparently fortified by many > defence circles, offered virtually no resistance. > > Thirdly, the invasion took far less time than military observers > predicted. > > MRN says questions are now being raised about the role of the Saudi > monarchy in the secret agreement. Arabic reporters are investigating > rumours that Saddam is being sheltered in Mecca. > > If these rumours are confirmed it would be a further clue to suggest > that Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia acted as the architect of > the secret agreement. > > He is apparently a trusted intermediary of the Bush family and the > only Arabic leader to be invited to President George W Bush's Texas farm. > > http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1349750,00.html > > > Owen From deafbox at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 23:42:59 2003 From: deafbox at hotmail.com (Russell Turpin) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Has Bush committed an impeachable offense? Message-ID: Owen Byrne: >The arduous task and high production values of filming "Saving Private >Lynch" seemingly caused the US to miss the fact that the Iraqis were >trying to give her back. Most recently, the US assumption that all >prisoners in Iraq were political prisoners - leading directly to looting .. I agree (1) that the US foreign policy/PR around the war sucked, and (2) that the US has done a lousy job in the followup. Those criticisms are somewhat different from the notion that the US military is a paper tiger. >The Muslim world apparently has their own conspiracy theory on what >happened Noting a conspiracy theory in the Muslim world is much like remarking on a mosquito in Louisiana, or a startup in Silicon Valley. There are far more you don't know about than there are ones you've noticed. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From lgonze at panix.com Sun Jun 8 19:59:34 2003 From: lgonze at panix.com (Lucas Gonze) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Has Bush committed an impeachable offense? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The idea of a special category of offenses that are impeachable was destroyed by the Lewinsky/whitewater mugging. There's no such thing as a high crime since then. All that matters is whether the impeachers can get away with it politically. - Lucas From geege at barrera.org Sun Jun 8 20:04:16 2003 From: geege at barrera.org (geege) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Has Bush committed an impeachable offense? In-Reply-To: <3EE3AE29.5090900@permafrost.net> Message-ID: not exactly related, but anyone catch al franken and bill o'reilley on book notes? franken frothing, o'reilley o'lyng - my GOD they should make us pay to watch this stuff. find the transcipt. no free links, gg -----Original Message----- From: fork-bounces@xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces@xent.com]On Behalf Of Owen Byrne Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 2:44 PM Cc: fork@xent.com Subject: Re: Has Bush committed an impeachable offense? Russell Turpin wrote: > Owen Byrne: > >> .. The one bright spot about the Iraq war was how >> incompetent the American armed forces appeared. > > > Really? Most pundits were predicting a long war with > large numbers of civilian casualties. The US military > took Iraq in a few weeks, suffering a remarkably > low number of casualties, and causing a remarkably > low number of civilian deaths. "Pundits" You mean retired US generals hired by CNN to pump up the drama. And the last sentence is like a word for word repetition of the official position - I can hear it on Fox news - propagation of official propaganda from the source through the media to the people. Sorry, it just makes me stop listen. It makes me think of much I heard the letters WMD a few months ago. And it was 11 years wasn't it? - not a few weeks. Wasn't the position at one point - whatever point it was convenient - that this was all one war? > > No, it didn't go perfectly. Wars never do. But from > a military viewpoint, I think it went quite well. I > doubt any of the governments in the mideast view > the US military as a paper tiger. If anything, I think > the world was surprised at the ease with which the > US conquered Afghanistan and Iraq. > I think most people watching the news and reading the papers outside the US can point to several examples of US lack of competence. "Paper tiger" might have been rhetoric, but here are a few examples of things that blew holes in the US's aura of invincibilty: The farmer with the bolt-action rifle. The whining about the Iraqis having night-vision goggles and GPS jammers gave the impression that suitably equipped armies would actually be able to resist. Cruise missiles landing in Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia. The assassination attempt late in the war - where cruise missiles aimed at a restaurant where Baath party guys were supposed to be. Destroyed the 3 houses around the restaurant but the restaurant itself was undamaged. While the callousness of the official response was probably the primary theme in press coverage, there was certainly the some questioning of "precision guidance" The arduous task and high production values of filming "Saving Private Lynch" seemingly caused the US to miss the fact that the Iraqis were trying to give her back. Most recently, the US assumption that all prisoners in Iraq were political prisoners - leading directly to looting - and leading to the ultimate irony - the looting of an Iraqi nuclear plant that the US had forgotten to secure. Conceivably leading directly to one of the things - the transfer of nuclear materials to terrorist groups - that the war was supposed to prevent. And I don't think its only me that gets the impression that US troops compare poorly to the British troops - the Brits seem like professional soldiers skilled in policing and counter-insurgency, while the US like a bunch of amateurish yahoos. See the footage of the American flag being draped over Saddam's statue for an example. Personally I watched a clip on CNN of a US soldier firing an anti-tank weapon where 3 times during a 60 second clip he asked his commanding officer "What do I do next?" It is not inconceivable to me that the embedded journalist thing will result in media consultants, focus groups, and the latest crop of reality shows along for the next war. Your next task on Fear Factor 2005 ... Just Friday we have this: http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=413196 > Command sounded out London on the possibility of sending contingents > to the American-controlled zones was because of the relative success > of British troops in policing roles. British officers feel the > aggressive actions of the Americans in some incidents resulted in > anger that may be taken out on British soldiers. Now perhaps I'm a cynic but to me - "relative success" is a polite version of "you suck" And I don't personally see any evidence of any countries in the region behaving any differently. Well - I do actually - seems to me that the opposition is stepping up - and that it seems to be aimed at the US almost entirely, rather than the British. Now to me that also fits - guerrillas always attack the weak points. To quote a friend - it took the US 2 wars and 11 years of sanctions to defeat Saddam - and Afghanistan is the lowest per-capita income country on the planet - and its not exactly pacified - the US doesn't look quite as invincible as it did in the fall. The Muslim world apparently has their own conspiracy theory on what happened - which fits in well with questioning US military invincibility ( I have seen this elsewhere): http://www.rense.com/general37/theory.htm > *Rense.com* > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > * > Iraqi War Conspiracy Theory * > By Neels Jackson > News24.com - South Africa > 4-21-3 > > *CAPE TOWN* - The rapid fall of Baghdad, after the strong initial > resistance that met American soldiers, is an indication that a secret > agreement was reached between America and the Iraqi government. > > A South African Muslim pressure group, Media Review Network (MRN), > claims that this is one of the speculations doing the rounds in the > Arabic media. > > MRN says the Arabic world is abuzz over the 'safqa' - an Arabic word > that refers to a secret arrangement. > > There are no facts to prove the existence of such a safqa, but three > results of the arrangement are apparently obvious. > > The first is that the lives of many American and British soldiers and > also that of leaders of Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party were spared. > > The second is that Baghdad, which was apparently fortified by many > defence circles, offered virtually no resistance. > > Thirdly, the invasion took far less time than military observers > predicted. > > MRN says questions are now being raised about the role of the Saudi > monarchy in the secret agreement. Arabic reporters are investigating > rumours that Saddam is being sheltered in Mecca. > > If these rumours are confirmed it would be a further clue to suggest > that Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia acted as the architect of > the secret agreement. > > He is apparently a trusted intermediary of the Bush family and the > only Arabic leader to be invited to President George W Bush's Texas farm. > > http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1349750,00.html > > > Owen From geege at barrera.org Sun Jun 8 19:36:17 2003 From: geege at barrera.org (geege@barrera.org) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: statesman.com | Insiders' big stock sales may be omen Message-ID: <1302503.1055122577701.JavaMail.root@localhost> *Please note, the sender's email address has not been verified. or "geege@BEAR-era.org" shorters owe warren haiku: same old bla bla or harbinger? (thanks, buffet, for nixing the tax cut.) gg ******************** If you are having trouble with any of the links in this message, or if the URL's are not appearing as links, please follow the instructions at the bottom of this email. Title: statesman.com | Insiders' big stock sales may be omen Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to access the sent link: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=893218548&pt=Y Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to SAVE THIS link: http://www.savethis.clickability.com/st/saveThisPopupApp?clickMap=saveFromET&partnerID=521&etMailToID=893218548&pt=Y Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to forward this link: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=forward&etMailToID=893218548&partnerID=521&pt=Y ******************** Email pages from any Web site you visit - add the EMAIL THIS button to your browser, copy and paste the following into your Web browser: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=browserButtons&pt=Y" ********************* Instructions: ----------------------------------------- If your e-mail program doesn't recognize Web addresses: 1. With your mouse, highlight the Web Address above. Be sure to highlight the entire Web address, even if it spans more than one line in your email. 2. Select Copy from the Edit menu at the top of your screen. 3. Launch your Web browser. 4. Paste the address into your Web browser by selecting Paste from the Edit menu. 5. Click Go or press Enter or Return on your keyboard. ******************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lair.xent.com/pipermail/fork/attachments/20030608/4e16d80e/attachment.htm From geege at barrera.org Sun Jun 8 22:43:52 2003 From: geege at barrera.org (geege) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Has Bush committed an impeachable offense? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: just discovered this was the third airing - back by popular demand. cspan2, book tv. -----Original Message----- From: fork-bounces@xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces@xent.com]On Behalf Of geege Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 7:04 PM To: Owen Byrne Cc: fork@xent.com Subject: RE: Has Bush committed an impeachable offense? not exactly related, but anyone catch al franken and bill o'reilley on book notes? franken frothing, o'reilley o'lyng - my GOD they should make us pay to watch this stuff. find the transcipt. no free links, gg -----Original Message----- From: fork-bounces@xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces@xent.com]On Behalf Of Owen Byrne Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 2:44 PM Cc: fork@xent.com Subject: Re: Has Bush committed an impeachable offense? Russell Turpin wrote: > Owen Byrne: > >> .. The one bright spot about the Iraq war was how >> incompetent the American armed forces appeared. > > > Really? Most pundits were predicting a long war with > large numbers of civilian casualties. The US military > took Iraq in a few weeks, suffering a remarkably > low number of casualties, and causing a remarkably > low number of civilian deaths. "Pundits" You mean retired US generals hired by CNN to pump up the drama. And the last sentence is like a word for word repetition of the official position - I can hear it on Fox news - propagation of official propaganda from the source through the media to the people. Sorry, it just makes me stop listen. It makes me think of much I heard the letters WMD a few months ago. And it was 11 years wasn't it? - not a few weeks. Wasn't the position at one point - whatever point it was convenient - that this was all one war? > > No, it didn't go perfectly. Wars never do. But from > a military viewpoint, I think it went quite well. I > doubt any of the governments in the mideast view > the US military as a paper tiger. If anything, I think > the world was surprised at the ease with which the > US conquered Afghanistan and Iraq. > I think most people watching the news and reading the papers outside the US can point to several examples of US lack of competence. "Paper tiger" might have been rhetoric, but here are a few examples of things that blew holes in the US's aura of invincibilty: The farmer with the bolt-action rifle. The whining about the Iraqis having night-vision goggles and GPS jammers gave the impression that suitably equipped armies would actually be able to resist. Cruise missiles landing in Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia. The assassination attempt late in the war - where cruise missiles aimed at a restaurant where Baath party guys were supposed to be. Destroyed the 3 houses around the restaurant but the restaurant itself was undamaged. While the callousness of the official response was probably the primary theme in press coverage, there was certainly the some questioning of "precision guidance" The arduous task and high production values of filming "Saving Private Lynch" seemingly caused the US to miss the fact that the Iraqis were trying to give her back. Most recently, the US assumption that all prisoners in Iraq were political prisoners - leading directly to looting - and leading to the ultimate irony - the looting of an Iraqi nuclear plant that the US had forgotten to secure. Conceivably leading directly to one of the things - the transfer of nuclear materials to terrorist groups - that the war was supposed to prevent. And I don't think its only me that gets the impression that US troops compare poorly to the British troops - the Brits seem like professional soldiers skilled in policing and counter-insurgency, while the US like a bunch of amateurish yahoos. See the footage of the American flag being draped over Saddam's statue for an example. Personally I watched a clip on CNN of a US soldier firing an anti-tank weapon where 3 times during a 60 second clip he asked his commanding officer "What do I do next?" It is not inconceivable to me that the embedded journalist thing will result in media consultants, focus groups, and the latest crop of reality shows along for the next war. Your next task on Fear Factor 2005 ... Just Friday we have this: http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=413196 > Command sounded out London on the possibility of sending contingents > to the American-controlled zones was because of the relative success > of British troops in policing roles. British officers feel the > aggressive actions of the Americans in some incidents resulted in > anger that may be taken out on British soldiers. Now perhaps I'm a cynic but to me - "relative success" is a polite version of "you suck" And I don't personally see any evidence of any countries in the region behaving any differently. Well - I do actually - seems to me that the opposition is stepping up - and that it seems to be aimed at the US almost entirely, rather than the British. Now to me that also fits - guerrillas always attack the weak points. To quote a friend - it took the US 2 wars and 11 years of sanctions to defeat Saddam - and Afghanistan is the lowest per-capita income country on the planet - and its not exactly pacified - the US doesn't look quite as invincible as it did in the fall. The Muslim world apparently has their own conspiracy theory on what happened - which fits in well with questioning US military invincibility ( I have seen this elsewhere): http://www.rense.com/general37/theory.htm > *Rense.com* > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > * > Iraqi War Conspiracy Theory * > By Neels Jackson > News24.com - South Africa > 4-21-3 > > *CAPE TOWN* - The rapid fall of Baghdad, after the strong initial > resistance that met American soldiers, is an indication that a secret > agreement was reached between America and the Iraqi government. > > A South African Muslim pressure group, Media Review Network (MRN), > claims that this is one of the speculations doing the rounds in the > Arabic media. > > MRN says the Arabic world is abuzz over the 'safqa' - an Arabic word > that refers to a secret arrangement. > > There are no facts to prove the existence of such a safqa, but three > results of the arrangement are apparently obvious. > > The first is that the lives of many American and British soldiers and > also that of leaders of Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party were spared. > > The second is that Baghdad, which was apparently fortified by many > defence circles, offered virtually no resistance. > > Thirdly, the invasion took far less time than military observers > predicted. > > MRN says questions are now being raised about the role of the Saudi > monarchy in the secret agreement. Arabic reporters are investigating > rumours that Saddam is being sheltered in Mecca. > > If these rumours are confirmed it would be a further clue to suggest > that Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia acted as the architect of > the secret agreement. > > He is apparently a trusted intermediary of the Bush family and the > only Arabic leader to be invited to President George W Bush's Texas farm. > > http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1349750,00.html > > > Owen From geege at barrera.org Sun Jun 8 22:53:52 2003 From: geege at barrera.org (geege) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: buffet's editorial on the tax cut Message-ID: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A1 3113-2003May19¬Found=true From jbone at deepfile.com Sun Jun 8 23:54:58 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: news update In-Reply-To: <3EE35D24.3090908@barrera.org> Message-ID: <23AB9B86-9A2E-11D7-8C9F-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> On Sunday, Jun 8, 2003, at 10:58 US/Central, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > "It's been 6 weeks since Saddam Hussein was killed by a pack > of wild boars, and the world is still glad to be rid of him." Yeah, but... WHERE ARE THE FUCKING WEAP--- Oh, never mind. Those that care don't matter, and those that matter don't care. jb --- First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I am not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I am not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I am not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me. -Pastor Niemoller (1946) From jbone at deepfile.com Mon Jun 9 00:07:17 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Walking molecules Message-ID: This is kind of weird / interesting... check out the little pics of myosin molecules trucking on down a strand of actin.... http://news.nanoapex.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3487 Myosin molecule walks like a person, experiment shows CHAMPAIGN, Ill. -- Scientists have developed an extremely accurate imaging technique for looking inside the machinery of a cell and have found that molecules of myosin "walk" in a fashion very much like a human. "Myosin walks like we walk, but with a 74-nanometer stride that is more than 10 million times smaller than ours," said Paul Selvin, a professor of physics at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and corresponding author of a paper to appear in the journal Science, as part of the Science Express Web site, on June 5. Myosin is a tiny molecular motor that converts chemical energy into mechanical motion. While there are more than a dozen types of myosin (including myosin II ? the main protein responsible for muscle contractions), Selvin and his collaborators studied myosin V. "This protein is also responsible for movement," Selvin said, "But not muscular movement. Myosin V is a little cargo transporter in our cells that moves things around by stepping along filaments of actin." ---- jb From beberg at mithral.com Mon Jun 9 06:43:26 2003 From: beberg at mithral.com (Adam L Beberg) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Unicode Message-ID: <337F52C7-9A67-11D7-BB46-003065DAE704@mithral.com> So now that Unicode 4.0 is out, I've been looking things over again. The plan has always been to dump ascii completely and use pure unicode. The problem is that Windows, OS X, and Linux (and every other OS) all "support" unicode I/O (for the < 50% of users running machines that support it), but _internally_ they all use completely different systems. So no matter how you consider doing it, you would have to #if every single line of code where you talk between the OS and a library, or the OS and a file etc. UTF-8 would seem like a solution, but it's the farthest from internal representations and it's hard to parse, you still end up with macro hell. UTF-16 is "close" to the internal representations, but not equal to any of them, and you end up with the big vs little endian issue to deal with. And then there is the varying level of unicode supported, more or less, with many bugs still in the implementations. And good luck if the code point is > 2^16. Right now I'm leaning towards just doing ascii for everything internal, UTF-8 for storing anything users enter/view (but that isn't manipulated) since all the databases are using UTF-8 because they didn't need to change any code. UTF-8 is also the only form compatible with all the non-Java programming languages, and things like FORTRAN are still in very widespread use. I wanted to use UTF-16BE but that's just not realistic. Of course, even something like dealing with a filename is still 500+ of lines of code that way. The bottom line may just be that unicode for anything besides things only the user will edit just isn't ready. Where you can cleanly dump the unicode into the GUI element and suck it back out. Anyone found a solution for this? A quick google search or 3 shows that the python/java/perl guys still aren't even close to have this working right yet, so I'm not holding out much hope. - Adam L. Beberg - beberg@mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ From jbone at deepfile.com Mon Jun 9 13:07:46 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:05 2003 Subject: Civics Under Republican Rule Message-ID: Attorney General John Ashcroft is visiting an elementary school. After the typical civics presentation to the class, he announces, "All right boys and girls, you can ask me questions now." A young boy named Bobby raises his hand and says, I have three questions, Mr. Ashcroft: 1. How did Bush win the election with fewer votes than Gore? 2. Why are you using the USA Patriot Act to limit Americans civil liberties? 3. Why hasn't the U.S. caught Osama bin Laden? Just then, the bell sounds and all the kids run out to the playground. Fifteen minutes later the kids return to class, and Ashcroft says, "I'm sorry, we were interrupted by the bell. Now, who has a question to ask me?" A young girl named Suzy raises her hand and says: I have five questions, Mr. Ashcroft: 1. How did Bush win the election with fewer votes than Gore? 2. Why are you using the USA Patriot Act to limit Americans civil liberties? 3. Why hasn't the U.S. caught Osama bin Laden? 4. Why did the bell go off 20 minutes early? 5. Where's Bobby? From dl at silcom.com Mon Jun 9 09:56:52 2003 From: dl at silcom.com (Dave Long) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: "storm cat" catapults / Re: quick quiz... In-Reply-To: Message from "Adam L. Beberg" Message-ID: <200306091556.IAA13385@maltesecat> > Damnit, I always forget about the horses! I suppose you forgot the juleps, too. I think it was the National Gallery Mellon who was supposed to have told his son he couldn't understand his passion for racehorses, for, after all, any fool knows one horse will be faster than another. If he were around to read a brief communication in a recent _Nature_, he might perhaps realize that not only is the racehorse (as revealed by several known commissions) of artistic interest, it can even be of academic interest: "A catapult action for rapid limb protraction" Wilson, Watson, & Lichtwark, Nature v. 421 2 Jan 2003 > Here we show that horses cannot achieve the high power output required > for rapid limb protraction by simple muscle contraction and that they > instead deploy an elastic biceps muscle to store and then release > bursts of energy -- this muscle's catapult action has an output that > is comparable to over 100 times its mass of non-elastic muscle. > Although grasshoppers and fleas are known to rely on a similar > catapult action for rapid acceleration, to our knowledge this has > not been demonstrated before in larger animals. -Dave :: :: :: > P.S. you do realize that #4 is loosely based on #3 right? Yes, but I'm not sure it's in character. Ghengis Khan (erratum: the whole name is apparently a title) is supposed to have been fairly religiously tolerant, and to have accepted missionaries (at least for court entertainment purposes)*. So I'm not surprised that he'd lift a few appealing lines from Deuteronomy. Where would Conan have been exposed to them? (I also wouldn't be surprised if the KJV verse was Bowdlerized. Any FoRKs have enough Hebrew to check if the original is more specific about what to do with the livestock, or whether it draws much distinction between the two and four legged varieties?) * He certainly had plenty to choose from. His empire was a great empire, as empires go; and as empires go it went. From rohit at ics.uci.edu Mon Jun 9 20:18:09 2003 From: rohit at ics.uci.edu (Rohit Khare) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: Photos from Kragen's wedding... Message-ID: http://www.khare.org/bk-wedding Since Kragen insisted on wearing an Indian kurta, I had to go and get one too! Sigh... anyway, thought you'd be amused to see my two new outfits, one silk, and one over-the-top embroidered number :-) Best, Rohit PS. FoRK was down today for entirely undiagnosed reasons. At least it's got 400Gb of raid-1'd storage, so it can be reconstituted... From lgonze at panix.com Mon Jun 9 23:43:39 2003 From: lgonze at panix.com (Lucas Gonze) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: Unicode In-Reply-To: <337F52C7-9A67-11D7-BB46-003065DAE704@mithral.com> References: <337F52C7-9A67-11D7-BB46-003065DAE704@mithral.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, Adam L Beberg wrote: > Anyone found a solution for this? A quick google search or 3 shows that > the python/java/perl guys still aren't even close to have this working > right yet, so I'm not holding out much hope. No solution, but I happen to have been looking through libmad today and I noticed that the support for unicode etc in the id3 part of the package is extremely clean. Check it out if you get a chance, though only for a model of what a serious attempt would look like. - Lucas From signa at birch.net Mon Jun 9 04:47:55 2003 From: signa at birch.net (Steve Nordquist) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: Ebay Javascript-- cry me a tarball. In-Reply-To: <1055020423.28963.5078.camel@marvin.boston.ximian.com> References: <3EE23C02.E3EFDBCD@endeavors.com> <1055020423.28963.5078.camel@marvin.boston.ximian.com> Message-ID: <20030610024355.4299915DC4E5@xent.com> ^^ Here's a tarball, call someone who cares. Javascript packet filters are the law now, as is non-RadioShack componentry at the dish (maybe you have better RF stuff at your ratshack) and ....there's an anime mascot for the distributed filesystem? Oh. Well. Yes, that's new. That's like naming a project so you know the domain of application, but with a GIMP script. From gtn at rbii.com Tue Jun 10 00:01:41 2003 From: gtn at rbii.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: Unicode In-Reply-To: <337F52C7-9A67-11D7-BB46-003065DAE704@mithral.com> References: <337F52C7-9A67-11D7-BB46-003065DAE704@mithral.com> Message-ID: <200306092301.41393.gtn@rbii.com> On Monday 09 June 2003 06:43 am, Adam L Beberg wrote: > Right now I'm leaning towards just doing ascii for everything internal, > UTF-8 for storing anything users enter/view (but that isn't > manipulated) since all the databases are using UTF-8 because they > didn't need to change any code .... > Anyone found a solution for this? There's some reasonable code from IBM for supporting various aspects of multilingual text handling... things like word breaking etc. but I think the answer to your question is really "it depends". Many systems have so-so support for wchar_t, which may well be all you need. If you have an application that does little or no linguistic analysis (i.e. word breaking, indexing etc.) it's probably fine to be 8-bit clean and to use UTF-8 internally, and convert either to the locale-specific encodings on the edges of the system, or leave it in UTF-8, depending on the OS. You should seriously avoid UTF16 internally here, because the probability is you'll end up with chains of conversions (locale->UTF16->locale->UTF16 etc. etc.). In some applications I've dealt with (badly done), that accounted for 20+% of the CPU utilization, for a clean UTF-8 system, conversions are typically less than 9%. If you're doing multilingual web stuff, do *everything* client-side in UTF-8, because, even 10 years after I pointed out many of the I18N problems on the web (http://www.mind-to-mind.com/library/papers/multilingual/multilingual-www.html), it's still broken, especially vis-a-vis forms. Anyway, if you have more specific questions, I'd be happy to answer them, but you'll have to explain what it is you want to do, especially with regard, I/O and text analysis. I'd be happy to answer off-list if you want too. From louie at ximian.com Tue Jun 10 00:05:02 2003 From: louie at ximian.com (Luis Villa) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: Ebay Javascript-- cry me a tarball. In-Reply-To: <20030610024355.4299915DC4E5@xent.com> References: <3EE23C02.E3EFDBCD@endeavors.com> <1055020423.28963.5078.camel@marvin.boston.ximian.com> <20030610024355.4299915DC4E5@xent.com> Message-ID: <1055214301.27351.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Color me utterly, completely lost... Luis On Mon, 2003-06-09 at 04:47, Steve Nordquist wrote: > ^^ Here's a tarball, call someone who cares. > > Javascript packet filters are the law now, as is non-RadioShack > componentry at the dish (maybe you have better RF stuff at your > ratshack) and ....there's an anime mascot for the distributed > filesystem? Oh. Well. Yes, that's new. That's like naming a > project so you know the domain of application, but with a > GIMP script. > From signa at birch.net Mon Jun 9 05:21:56 2003 From: signa at birch.net (Steve Nordquist) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: panicked parents pick a peck of penicillin (was RE: Republican Kiddie pR0n In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030610032004.75D4215DC47F@xent.com> On Saturday 07 June 2003 02:03 am, you struggled free to say: ^^ i think the variable is treatment, not exposure. less of the first rather ^^ than more of the second. (wash those hands, buckaroo!) How about drycleaning money? Doesn't anyone use dry ice anymore? Isn't claiming to be Obey & Consume Moderates a step in the right direction? Maybe they use a big government scanner with a quartz lamp that ligthly carbonizes as it makes the plate for later processing into a .png. With increased pulp ejection and wider ream feeder! Crass. RIght. From joe at barrera.org Mon Jun 9 21:31:41 2003 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: Ebay Javascript-- cry me a tarball. In-Reply-To: <1055214301.27351.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <3EE23C02.E3EFDBCD@endeavors.com> <1055020423.28963.5078.camel@marvin.boston.ximian.com> <20030610024355.4299915DC4E5@xent.com> <1055214301.27351.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3EE5511D.3010508@barrera.org> Luis Villa wrote: > Color me utterly, completely lost... Don't you have the Secret Nordquist Decoder Ring? ... oh, of course not. It's a Secret. >>Javascript packet filters are the law now, http://www.xent.com/pipermail/fork/2003-June/022097.html He's letting you know what modern browsers now contain, and why they don't crash viewing JavaScript. >> as is non-RadioShack componentry at the dish (maybe you have better RF >> stuff at your ratshack) Modern browsers have Cosm/BOINC embedded in them as well, but they don't need it has they have radio shack parts that can do the job better: http://www.xent.com/pipermail/fork/2003-June/022111.html "Of course, the fact that all the processing could be done by analog hardware at the dish in real-time with some stuff from Radio Shack (ha!) got past them too ;)" - AB >> and ....there's an anime mascot for the distributed filesystem? > Can you tell me about your distributed file system, for example? > Tell me of your homeworld, Usul. If AB and I were collaborating, then yes, there would be an anime mascot for the DFS. Steve probably has a particular mascot in mind, but it's not coming to me right now. http://www.barrera.org/fatora2.jpg <-- my recommendation (unless it's a heterogeneous DFS, of course) >>Oh. Well. Yes, that's new. That's like naming a >>project so you know the domain of application, but with a >>GIMP script. Surely that needs no explanation. From louie at ximian.com Tue Jun 10 00:50:10 2003 From: louie at ximian.com (Luis Villa) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: Ebay Javascript-- cry me a tarball. In-Reply-To: <3EE5511D.3010508@barrera.org> References: <3EE23C02.E3EFDBCD@endeavors.com> <1055020423.28963.5078.camel@marvin.boston.ximian.com> <20030610024355.4299915DC4E5@xent.com> <1055214301.27351.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <3EE5511D.3010508@barrera.org> Message-ID: <1055217010.27351.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> I stand enlightened. Not necessarily wiser, or even more knowledgeable, but enlightened. :) Luis On Mon, 2003-06-09 at 23:31, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > Luis Villa wrote: > > > Color me utterly, completely lost... > > Don't you have the Secret Nordquist Decoder Ring? > > ... oh, of course not. It's a Secret. > > >>Javascript packet filters are the law now, > > http://www.xent.com/pipermail/fork/2003-June/022097.html > > He's letting you know what modern browsers now contain, > and why they don't crash viewing JavaScript. > > >> as is non-RadioShack componentry at the dish (maybe you have better RF > >> stuff at your ratshack) > > Modern browsers have Cosm/BOINC embedded in them as well, > but they don't need it has they have radio shack parts > that can do the job better: > > http://www.xent.com/pipermail/fork/2003-June/022111.html > > "Of course, the fact that all the processing could be done by analog > hardware at the dish in real-time with some stuff from Radio Shack > (ha!) got past them too ;)" - AB > > >> and ....there's an anime mascot for the distributed filesystem? > > > Can you tell me about your distributed file system, for example? > > > Tell me of your homeworld, Usul. > > If AB and I were collaborating, then yes, there would be an > anime mascot for the DFS. Steve probably has a particular > mascot in mind, but it's not coming to me right now. > > http://www.barrera.org/fatora2.jpg <-- my recommendation > > (unless it's a heterogeneous DFS, of course) > > >>Oh. Well. Yes, that's new. That's like naming a > >>project so you know the domain of application, but with a > >>GIMP script. > > Surely that needs no explanation. > > > From fatora at polymathy.org Mon Jun 9 21:48:26 2003 From: fatora at polymathy.org (Princess Fatora) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: Ebay Javascript-- cry me a tarball. In-Reply-To: <3EE5511D.3010508@barrera.org> References: <3EE23C02.E3EFDBCD@endeavors.com> <1055020423.28963.5078.camel@marvin.boston.ximian.com> <20030610024355.4299915DC4E5@xent.com> <1055214301.27351.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <3EE5511D.3010508@barrera.org> Message-ID: <3EE5550A.1040001@polymathy.org> Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > but they don't need it has they have radio shack parts ITYM *as* they have... From bitbitch at magnesium.net Tue Jun 10 01:04:24 2003 From: bitbitch at magnesium.net (bitbitch) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: Ebay Javascript-- cry me a tarball. In-Reply-To: <20030610024355.4299915DC4E5@xent.com> References: <3EE23C02.E3EFDBCD@endeavors.com> <1055020423.28963.5078.camel@marvin.boston.ximian.com> <20030610024355.4299915DC4E5@xent.com> Message-ID: <3EE558C8.2040709@magnesium.net> Steve Nordquist wrote: > ^^ Here's a tarball, call someone who cares. > >Javascript packet filters are the law now, as is non-RadioShack >componentry at the dish (maybe you have better RF stuff at your >ratshack) and ....there's an anime mascot for the distributed >filesystem? Oh. Well. Yes, that's new. That's like naming a >project so you know the domain of application, but with a >GIMP script. > > > > I reply to a Nordquist post with a bit of elucidation (I Hope!) I honestly think he's talking about Domo-kun (http://www.cardhouse.com/japan/domokun.htm) but gads, truly getting into the Nordquist brain is like deciphering a PGP private key from the public one, or something. Back to e-Commerce gold. (So Nordy, am I right?) -BB From lgonze at panix.com Mon Jun 9 17:41:05 2003 From: lgonze at panix.com (Lucas Gonze) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: news update In-Reply-To: <23AB9B86-9A2E-11D7-8C9F-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> References: <23AB9B86-9A2E-11D7-8C9F-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 2003, Jeff Bone wrote: > Oh, never mind. Those that care don't matter, and those that matter > don't care. I vacillate on this. There is an objective reality, no matter how pervasive the misinformation is. Sure, things are so polarized that ordinary people will go out of their way to argue that up is down, but reality will not be argued with. >From where we sit, the historical arc is too large to see. Maybe the neocon putch of the Clinton and Bush II years is soon to be a historical episode associated with the constant clanging of false alarms by the president and his staff. Maybe it will be permanent. ... From gbolcer at endeavors.com Sun Jun 8 22:58:04 2003 From: gbolcer at endeavors.com (Gregory Alan Bolcer) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: Free Turds for Everyone References: <64A2088F-9962-11D7-8A2F-003065DAE704@mithral.com> <3EE2B19A.5020005@barrera.org> Message-ID: <3EE413DC.E5AFAE76@endeavors.com> When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him. Johnathan Swift-- "Thoughts on Various Subjects, Moral and Diverting" Induction would state, if Adam's a genius, then we're all a confederacy of dunces against him. Abduction would state, if Adam thinks we're all a confederacy of dunces against him, then he must be a genius. Just cause the grass is wet don't necessarily mean it's raining. Greg "Joseph S. Barrera III" wrote: > I see. What about "Cosm Phase 2"? > Should we still be waiting for that needle to move? > Or is that just a smokescreen to fool the gullible, > hiding the super-new and super-secret stuff you're > really working on? > > I would assume that was just a stale web page, > except that you've bothered to update all the > copyrights to 2003, and the page claims it was > last modified May 21, 2003. > > Can you tell me about your distributed file system, for example? > > - Joe From fatora at polymathy.org Mon Jun 9 21:35:07 2003 From: fatora at polymathy.org (Princess Fatora) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: Ebay Javascript-- cry me a tarball. In-Reply-To: <3EE5511D.3010508@barrera.org> References: <3EE23C02.E3EFDBCD@endeavors.com> <1055020423.28963.5078.camel@marvin.boston.ximian.com> <20030610024355.4299915DC4E5@xent.com> <1055214301.27351.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <3EE5511D.3010508@barrera.org> Message-ID: <3EE551EB.1050708@polymathy.org> Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > but they don't need it has they have radio shack parts ITYM *as* they have... From geege at barrera.org Mon Jun 9 03:01:39 2003 From: geege at barrera.org (geege) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: Walking molecules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://www.cephbase.dal.ca/refdb/pdf/7561.pdf too odd. you're reading nano* news and i ms research and our coordinates overlap in myosin ... *or investment in nano -----Original Message----- From: fork-bounces@xent.com [mailto:fork-bounces@xent.com]On Behalf Of Jeff Bone Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 9:07 PM To: fork@xent.com Subject: Walking molecules This is kind of weird / interesting... check out the little pics of myosin molecules trucking on down a strand of actin.... http://news.nanoapex.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3487 Myosin molecule walks like a person, experiment shows CHAMPAIGN, Ill. -- Scientists have developed an extremely accurate imaging technique for looking inside the machinery of a cell and have found that molecules of myosin "walk" in a fashion very much like a human. "Myosin walks like we walk, but with a 74-nanometer stride that is more than 10 million times smaller than ours," said Paul Selvin, a professor of physics at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and corresponding author of a paper to appear in the journal Science, as part of the Science Express Web site, on June 5. Myosin is a tiny molecular motor that converts chemical energy into mechanical motion. While there are more than a dozen types of myosin (including myosin II ? the main protein responsible for muscle contractions), Selvin and his collaborators studied myosin V. "This protein is also responsible for movement," Selvin said, "But not muscular movement. Myosin V is a little cargo transporter in our cells that moves things around by stepping along filaments of actin." ---- jb From rohit at ics.uci.edu Tue Jun 10 19:18:14 2003 From: rohit at ics.uci.edu (Rohit Khare) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: BBC: human genotype originated in as few as 2K apes Message-ID: <92E9891E-9BAA-11D7-820B-000393B4C2A6@ics.uci.edu> Does this really deserve as dire a headline as it got? It seems like saying "2-day old newborn almost dead" -- it's not solidly alive and viable on its own yet, is it? (and won't be for 18-35 years :-) It seems more amazing to me that we can trace some markers back as far as to the first 5-10 generations of the original mutants that founded our species. Rohit ===== When humans faced extinction By Dr David Whitehouse BBC News Online science editor The study suggests that at one point there may have been only 2,000 individuals alive as our species teetered on the brink. This means that, for a while, humanity was in a perilous state, vulnerable to disease, environmental disasters and conflict. If any of these factors had turned against us, we would not be here. The research also suggests that humans ( Homo sapiens sapiens ) made their first journey out of Africa as recently as 70,000 years ago. Little diversity Unlike our close genetic relatives - chimps - all humans have virtually identical DNA. In fact, one group of chimps can have more genetic diversity than all of the six billion humans alive today. It is thought we spilt from a common ancestor with chimps 5-6 million years ago, more than enough time for substantial genetic differences to develop. The absence of those differences suggests to some researchers that the human gene pool was reduced to a small size in the recent past, thereby wiping out genetic variation between current populations. Evidence for that view is published in the American Journal of Human Genetics. Oldest members Because all humans have virtually identical DNA, geneticists look for subtle differences between populations. One method involves looking at so-called microsatellites - short, repetitive segments of DNA that differ between populations. These microsatellites have a high mutation, or error, rate as they are passed from generation to generation, making them a useful tool to study when two populations diverged. Researchers from Stanford University, US, and the Russian Academy of Sciences compared 377 microsatellite markers in DNA collected from 52 regions around the world. Analysis revealed a close genetic kinship between two hunter-gatherer populations in sub-Saharan Africa - the Mbuti pygmies of the Congo Basin and the Khosian bushmen of Botswana. First migration The researchers believe that they are "the oldest branch of modern humans studied here". The data also reveals that the separation between the hunter-gatherer populations and farmers in Africa occurred between 70,000 and 140,000 years ago. Modern man's migration out of Africa would have occurred after this. An earlier genetic study - involving the Y chromosomes of more than 1,000 men from 21 populations - concluded that the first human migration from Africa may have occurred about 66,000 years ago. The small genetic diversity of modern humans indicates that at some stage during the last 100,000 years, the human population dwindled to a very low level. It was out of this small population, with its consequent limited genetic diversity, that today's humans descended. Small pool Estimates of how small the human population became vary but 2,000 is the figure suggested in the latest research. "This estimate does not preclude the presence of other populations of Homo sapiens sapiens (modern man) in Africa, although it suggests that they were probably isolated from each other genetically," they say. The authors of the study believe that contemporary worldwide populations descended from one or very few of these populations. If this is the case, humanity came very close to extinction. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/science/nature/2975862.stm Published: 2003/06/09 17:35:30 GMT From jbone at deepfile.com Tue Jun 10 16:25:04 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: DOJ Surveillance Under Fire Message-ID: <9E865E64-9B81-11D7-9A28-00039366B36A@deepfile.com> From Wired: http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,59150,00.html ---- The Justice Department's statements -- and what it did not say -- in a congressional inquiry on the use of broadened surveillance powers authorized after the Sept. 11 attacks is raising a red flag among civil liberties groups. A central concern is the lack of clarity regarding the scope of Internet surveillance powers granted in the controversial USA Patriot Act. In response to testimony last week by Attorney General John Ashcroft before the House Judiciary Committee, the American Civil Liberties Union published a memo criticizing the government's attempts to apply the methodology for tracing phone calls to tracking Internet use. Timothy Edgar, an ACLU legislative counsel and the report's author, argued that so-called "trap and trace" devices, traditionally used to capture telephone numbers but not the content of conversations, could potentially violate a subject's privacy if it's used to watch Web activity. From jbone at deepfile.com Tue Jun 10 16:26:12 2003 From: jbone at deepfile.com (Jeff Bone) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: Impeach Bush Spreads Message-ID: From Kuro5hin... apologies if some of the links at the bottom were broken, extracting them was tres tedious. Almost tedious enough to write a little tool. :-) Also apologies if this comes through twice... http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/6/8/23114/63641 ---- It was one thing when Ramsey Clark called for impeachment [1] of President Bush. He is, after all, the head of a Red/Pinko anti-war organization and we should expect anti-war leaders to start such campaigns. That was last November. When articles of impeachment were posted you knew that Liberal/Progressive website CounterPunch had joined the campaign. [2] That was January. Deep in the caucuses of Congress, plans were quietly drawn up by Democrats considering impeachment [3] and things got much more serious. That was March. On the net, Democratic Party activists are pledging revenge [4] for Clinton's impeachment. But when heavy-weight opinion-makers, like the New York Times's Paul [1] Krugman, [2] allege fraud, [7] smart money gets off the table. In response, President Richard Nixon's White House lawyer John Dean [8] wrote [9] "this is the first potential scandal I have seen that could make Watergate pale by comparison". That was June. Google reports 36,800 instances of "impeach" and "Bush" [10] compared with 30,400 for "impeach" and "Clinton". [11] (Sorry, GoogleFight [12] is run out.) There are a large number of web pages are selling "Impeach Bush" bumperstickers, [13] but... [1] http://votetoimpeach.org/ [2] http://www.counterpunch.org/boyle01172003.html [3] http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-enrich030603.asp [4] http://democrats.com/display.cfm?id=261 [5] http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/03/opinion/03KRUG.html [6] http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0603-03.htm [7] http://mysearch.myway.com/jsp/ GGmain.jsp?searchfor=%22Standard+Operating+Procedure%22+%22Paul+Krugman% 22&st=site&ptnrS= [8] http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20030606.html [9] http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/06/findlaw.analysis.dean.wmd/ [10] http://www.google.com/ search?q=impeach+bush&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 [11] http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF- 8&q=impeach+clinton [12] http://www.googlefight.com/ [13] http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF- 8&q=%22impeach+bush%22+%22bumper+sticker%22 From khare at alumni.caltech.edu Tue Jun 10 15:34:51 2003 From: khare at alumni.caltech.edu (khare@alumni.caltech.edu) Date: Mon Jun 30 22:39:06 2003 Subject: NYTimes.com Article: As Concorde Service Comes to a Close, Celebrity Watching Does Too Message-ID: <20030610183451.BDBFC84CC@web39t.prvt.nytimes.com> This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by khare@alumni.caltech.edu. It's too bad none of them have sighted TRAVELMAN yet! :-) RK khare@alumni.caltech.edu /-------------------- advertisement -----------------------\ Explore more of Starbucks at Starbucks.com. http://www.starbucks.com/default.asp?ci=1015 \----------------------------------------------------------/ As Concorde Service Comes to a Close, Celebrity Watching Does Too June 10, 2003 By JANE LEVERE As the Concorde era draws to a close, the regulars are reminiscing. And one of their favorite topics has nothing to do with barreling along at 1,350 miles an hour 10 to 11 miles above sea level. It has to do with an amusement that more budget-minded travelers can indulge in only sporadically